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Topic: Steel guitar intonation problems? Just press a button! |
Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 7:22 am |
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| actually using this to fix a couple of flubbed notes in an otherwise great take isn't so bad. It's all about use versus abuse. Like using too much distortion or reverb or delay. |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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John Burton
From:
Manassas, Va
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 7:41 am
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yeah that would probably be crossing the line. Acceptable live use I would say is for the funky effect sound (kinda like using a vocoder) and if the singer is very sick and has a problem in a certain part of their range. In that situation you face either canceling, re-arranging all the charts for the band in another key (which might be easy if you have Finale,etc or it might be a lot of work and that effects everyone) or adjusting the singer's voice. I'm not saying it's the right solution but, it's at least nice to know there is a technological option when there's a concert to do and there's a lot of money riding on it.
The thing is that it's used regularly to compensate for bad singing, period.
This is a funky area because a singer's instrument is their body whereas the rest of us can just retune our instrument or grab another one.
Just saying it's not as clear cut as these articles make it seem. They just make better news when they look at these extremes.
Auto-Tune was not created for this purpose. |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 7:59 am
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AJ Azure writes
| Quote: |
| I'm not saying it's the right solution but, it's at least nice to know there is a technological option when there's a concert to do and there's a lot of money riding on it. |
Just like in the World Series or the Olympics!
_________________
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
A UkeTone Recording Artist
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Hawaiian Steel Guitar/Ukulele Website |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 8:23 am
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| not sure what you mean. are you referring to doping? |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 8:24 am
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| If it's a great singer having a bad day maybe.. |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 8:37 am
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In the upper echelons of sports the pros can all do pretty much the same thing. They can throw, catch, run, jump, kick and swing a stick at pretty much the same level. The differences between them and the exciting part of the competition is how they handle the mental aspect of the match.
Are they having a good day? Did they sleep well last night? Have they been eating healthy food lately? How's their alcohol and recreational drug usage been lately. Are they metally pumped up for the competition? Are they confident? Scared?
If every athlete were able to overcome the human factors by using drugs (Auto-Tune) then sports and music would be boring.
_________________
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
A UkeTone Recording Artist
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Hawaiian Steel Guitar/Ukulele Website |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 9:00 am
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| Gerald Ross wrote: |
In the upper echelons of sports the pros can all do pretty much the same thing. They can throw, catch, run, jump, kick and swing a stick at pretty much the same level. The differences between them and the exciting part of the competition is how they handle the mental aspect of the match.
Are they having a good day? Did they sleep well last night? Have they been eating healthy food lately? How's their alcohol and recreational drug usage been lately. Are they metally pumped up for the competition? Are they confident? Scared?
If every athlete were able to overcome the human factors by using drugs (Auto-Tune) then sports and music would be boring. |
you're talking self abuse and I am talking having the flu or other illness. it's not a good comparison an athlete would take a medication to feel better. Were they to overcome their limitations by doing that's not a something you do as a one time special exception that takes ongoing use. plus you're talking a competitive situation The singer isn't competing with anyone but, their standard level of performance. No one gets hurt in the singer's case. in fact if she tried to sing those parts she normally can sing while she is sick she could hurt herself. No one is being cheated unlike the sports situation. especially, since the only way to gain any edge would be to do it ongoing and premeditated.
The sports comparison is totally flawed.
Now were the singer to rely on it rather than having good technique then you have a fair comparison.
remember we're talking usage for parts of the singer's range for certain tunes not the whole show and not every note.
Instrumentalist do things to their sound on a regular basis. Like making up for lack of sustain or volume for example. Or EQing a part of their sound. EQ is changing the quality of the voice. that could be seen as cheating too.
The bottom line is you can't just say auto tune is evil and make it so clear cut. it's just not that simple.
Last edited by AJ Azure on 4 Jun 2009 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 9:06 am
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How would you feel if went to see your favorite steel guitarist in concert and before the concert they said...
"I've got a bad cold, my ears are all plugged up, and yesterday someone poked me in the eye so I can't really see too well, but I appreciate you all coming out tonight so I'm just going to turn on Auto-Tune for all my songs tonight. Hope you enjoy the show!"
Personally, I wish they'd cancel the show and refund my ticket price.
_________________
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
A UkeTone Recording Artist
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Hawaiian Steel Guitar/Ukulele Website |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 9:16 am
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| Gerald Ross wrote: |
How would you feel if went to see your favorite steel guitarist in concert and before the concert they said...
"I've got a bad cold, my ears are all plugged up, and yesterday someone poked me in the eye so I can't really see too well, but I appreciate you all coming out tonight so I'm just going to turn on Auto-Tune for all my songs tonight. Hope you enjoy the show!"
Personally, I wish they'd cancel the show and refund my ticket price. |
read the above. and if it's their only night in town and they won't be coming around for 2 more years?..
Have you ever used auto tune? you're talking about it as a way to effect every single note you sing. that is not the only application.
You're also trying to make comparisons with everything but, talking about the actual singing. The comparisons are flawed. Firstly you don't go on stage and announce you're sick and second there is a line you come to where you decide whether to cancel, tough it out or use a little help. i am saying little help not lip synch not auto tune every note.
It's really easy to sit in judgement with no first hand anecdotal experience of its' varied usage. You're being shown only the extreme usages. |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 9:24 am
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In the 1950's Les Paul multi-tracked his guitar to create imposible harmonies. He quadruple tracked Mary Ford's voice to create lush quartets. He recorded his guitar parts at a slow tempo and sped up the tape three-fold for the final mix.
Everyone knew what Les Paul was doing. He didn't hide the fact that the sound was electronically manipulated.
In the 1960's you had Dave Seville and the Chipmunks. Slow down a Chipmunks recording - it's all Dave Seville multitracked and sped up.
Nobody believed that chipmunks sang these parts and Dave Seville (real name: Ross Bagdasarian) couldn't and never tried to hide the truth from the public.
But using Auto-Tune to deliberately make a bad singer sound good or creating a vocal part that would be impossible for the vocalist to sing even on a "good day" and presenting the product as "what the singer really sounds like" is cheating.
About 10-15 years ago I saw Pavoratti in concert. Before the show they announced that Pavoratti was not feeling well but he would perform anyway. He performed and honestly... he hit some clams, but most of his performance was amazing. I did not feel cheated. I didn't feel like I saw him at his best but I was still impressed by his talent.
_________________
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
A UkeTone Recording Artist
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Hawaiian Steel Guitar/Ukulele Website |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 9:44 am
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| Gerald Ross wrote: |
In the 1950's Les Paul multi-tracked his guitar to create imposible harmonies. He quadruple tracked Mary Ford's voice to create lush quartets. He recorded his guitar parts at a slow tempo and sped up the tape three-fold for the final mix.
Everyone knew what Les Paul was doing. He didn't hide the fact that the sound was electronically manipulated.
In the 1960's you had Dave Seville and the Chipmunks. Slow down a Chipmunks recording - it's all Dave Seville multitracked and sped up.
Nobody believed that chipmunks sang these parts and Dave Seville (real name: Ross Bagdasarian) couldn't and never tried to hide the truth from the public.
But using Auto-Tune to deliberately make a bad singer sound good or creating a vocal part that would be impossible for the vocalist to sing even on a "good day" and presenting the product as "what the singer really sounds like" is cheating.
About 10-15 years ago I saw Pavoratti in concert. Before the show they announced that Pavoratti was not feeling well but he would perform anyway. He performed and honestly... he hit some clams, but most of his performance was amazing. I did not feel cheated. I didn't feel like I saw him at his best but I was still impressed by his talent. |
ah you said impossible on a good day and make a bad signer sound good. the point is on a good day the singer can do it. You're mentioning opera an organic acoustic style music. i am talking fronting a rock or pop band in loud volumes. there is going to be electronic manipulation either way.
As a side note, the way I understand it with Les Paul no one knew what he was doing at first.
Gerald it's just coming off as you buying in to the mass negative propaganda ad not understanding what the tech actually is.
I totally agree with the extremes being cheating but, you're not looking at the grey areas only the absolutes. |
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Kay Das
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 11:25 am
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Being a technologist and an engineer should I accept all the aids that technology provides to music making? I do not. I think there are limits.
It is perfectly possible today to have a band play PCs on stage and not feature a single musical instrument. Argggh...
I did not agree with Les Paul's impossibly speeded up tracks. He went a bit OTT after his great beginning using multi-track techniques and making them an art form.
Personally I go for the George Martin/Geoff Emerick/Beatles approach in letting the "human" element into the recordings.
But the market today demands "perfect" recordings...or you get nowhere.
Kay |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 1:35 pm
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| Kay Das wrote: |
Being a technologist and an engineer should I accept all the aids that technology provides to music making? I do not. I think there are limits.
It is perfectly possible today to have a band play PCs on stage and not feature a single musical instrument. Argggh...
I did not agree with Les Paul's impossibly speeded up tracks. He went a bit OTT after his great beginning using multi-track techniques and making them an art form.
Personally I go for the George Martin/Geoff Emerick/Beatles approach in letting the "human" element into the recordings.
But the market today demands "perfect" recordings...or you get nowhere.
Kay |
so you're saying playing a PC loaded with VSTis and sample instruments via a keyboard or other mIDi instrument interface is not playing an instrument. If that's the case, you're not a current era technologist. you're utilizing a nearly 50 year old example. Not quite cutting edge.
Well in your line of thought a conductor is cheating.
They said the same things about the electric guitar by the way.
See you're talking about extremes. Every record is not about perfection and you can utilize tech towards the end product with out perfection as your goal.
Your generational bias is coming through guys. |
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Kay Das
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 3:12 pm
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I meant a PC only. A keyboard (black and white keys) with a PC makes it okay for me and many's the time I work that way.
It is,however, possible with today's technology to do without said black and white keyboard and I do not buy that. |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 3:38 pm
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you mean using computer keyboard? lol I've seen a band that does that exclusively. It certainly blurs the lines of what constitutes an instrument but, doesn't the theremin or the musical saw or musical bells do that too? Aren't those just interfaces towards playing a specific pitch?
If you mean just playing a batch of loops than yah that's no so much in the way of musicality. Although, there is something to be said for utilizing loops as percussive devices.
I tend to head towards the Philip Glass and John Cage school of musicality. Although you wouldn't know it by what i do wit hmy trad group. |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 3:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| so you're saying playing a PC loaded with VSTis and sample instruments via a keyboard or other mIDi instrument interface is not playing an instrument. If that's the case, you're not a current era technologist. you're utilizing a nearly 50 year old example. Not quite cutting edge. |
Playing a keyboard to trigger MIDI or sampled notes is definitely music. You still need basic keyboard skills to create melodies, chords, rhythm etc.
Cutting and pasting pre-recorded samples and audio clips that you did not create into a musical collage is not in the same league. Yes, it takes talent to assemble these sounds into a listenable mix and the computer skills required can be learned in a few hours - if that long, but it's not music. It's the musical equivalent of Kindergarten macaroni art.
_________________
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
A UkeTone Recording Artist
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Hawaiian Steel Guitar/Ukulele Website |
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Kay Das
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 4:05 pm
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My son, who is a professional musician, laments that much of the commercial music made today (jingles, short music ads, more) is created by pasting loops together ( to use Gerald's words, "Kindergarten macaroni art" style). Lowering production time and costs is driving this trend. Which is why copyright protection is now extending to loops.... and lawyers getting richer...the world getting crazier...you get the drift...
By the way, The Beatles did use "loops" in the Sergeant Pepper album in the late 60s. Geoff Emerick, their recording engineer, was asked to chop up bits of recorded-on analog tape, throw them in the air, pick up the randomly ordered bits from the floor and assemble them again...
But I am getting off the topic of this thread... |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 4:35 pm
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now there I agree. i do jingles and film scores and losing work to collage makers is not at all cool. utilizing loops as tools to write on top of is a great creativity and inspiration vehicle but, using only loops that's not composition as much as arranging.
It can't be dismissed as easily as you'd like to Gerald since it takes a lot of skill to do t really well and that can't be learned in five minutes. It is musical but, it isn't composing. It's arranging. |
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Grant Cuthbert
From:
Sydney, Australia
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Posted 4 Jun 2009 11:40 pm
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| autotune and melodyne are just awful in most cases, rarely is it used well |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 5 Jun 2009 1:47 am
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I prefer something that is real and flawed rather than some kind of fake perfection. Music should be about expression, not constant perfection. Listen to how many imperfections there are in great old recordings. Do these matter? Not in my book. Recorded music when it's good captures a moment. We need more moments and less tweaking in today's music.
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 5 Jun 2009 5:42 am
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I did a vocal session a few years ago with a big name producer/mixer and I was heartbroken when I heard autotune on the release, even though only on one sustained note. Instead of an extremely minor infraction, all of sudden my voice became robot-like for a second. I vowed never to leave a mixdown session again on a vocal track of mine.
I can pick out autotune a mile away, even if it's almost imperceptible. I would never use it wilfully.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Jun 2009 7:23 am
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i've done pitch edits in digital performer with out autotune and it is totally unidentifiable. This mando had major intonation problems in only three notes but, I could hear it. we were stuck with that mando andthat take. so what then?
not bother recording at all? |
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