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Topic: JBL speakers |
Jerry Humphries
From:
Jasper, AL.
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Posted 5 Jun 2009 6:17 pm |
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| Do they still make the JBL 130F speakers? If so where would one might buy a couple of them. |
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Don Lanier
From:
Illinois, USA
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 5 Jun 2009 9:18 pm
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| The Weber California is supposedly a very good modern copy of the old JBLs. Weber also makes a slightly lighter weight neo version that supposedly sounds the same. |
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Jim Dickinson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2009 8:40 am
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Knowing the construction of the Lansing speakers, the ALTECs and the JBLs pretty well, from what I have seen the Weber Neo ought to sound the closest to a D130 of anything you might find new, however, have not heard one, just looking at the motor and cone specs. Fender had Eminence make a copy for them in one of their amps that was designed by Jerry Hubbard at Fender when JBL would not build any for them. Jerry, formerly Chief Acoustics’ Engineer at Altec, is one of the world’s best speaker designers there is. I have know him personally for over 20 years, if he did it, its right. I don't know what amp they put it in or if it is still available.
On the used JBL subject, if you get a used one, you are taking a real chance that it does not have the right cone software in it. The leading recone parts company for many years, now gone, did not sell the right parts, just stuff that would make it work, Original JBL parts cost a lot more and when it was presented as “just as good” many people bought them. If it works for you right out of the box, good. If it doesn’t, it’s not the maker’s fault. Also after years of Rock and Roll abuse the magnet could be flat also, make sure who ever does your recone charges the magnet, alnico can be easily demagged. The JBLs were beautifully made as were the ALTEC’s, a somewhat different philosophy of sound quality and construction. Right now, the current main supplier of recone parts to the world sells the same ALTEC 15” kit for all of them, regardless of application, It is not right for any of the individual models, closer for woofers, way off for 418s. So if you have a 418 and it doesn’t sound right, this may be the reason. The same goes for the ALTEC 12s. They do seem to have a better handle on the JBL parts, however. Just my word of warning, sometimes nothing is as it appears. Jim |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 6 Jun 2009 2:02 pm
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| Eminance Commonwealth. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jun 2009 11:44 pm
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| I have a pair of JBL K130's that are killer. they are original cone. Awesome performance. For reconing, Woody Woodel does incredible work. He can breathe new life into the old jbl's. Ask Lloyd G. or Buddy E. |
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Ray DeVoe
From:
Hudson, FL
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Posted 9 Jun 2009 3:37 am
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Hi Jerry
I sent you a PM.
I have 2 freshly reconed JBL D 130 F's that I could part with.
I had Woody Woodell recone a batch of 10 frames and am willing to part with a couple.
James Morehead just took two and I can let two more go.
Let me know if you are interested.
Ray DeVoe
_________________
Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" Splits.
Webb 15" Splits: Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12": |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2009 2:43 pm
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Hate to disagree with my forum friends, but I currently USE a Weber California 15, and bought an Eminence Commonwealth 15 when I first heard about them.
Neither sounds close to a "real" JBL D 130 IMHO..
Even my K 130- sounded much better than either the Weber or Commonwealth..
As far as tone, no speaker ever made sounds that close to a D130... D 130's blow left and right on me, otherwise thats all I would use.. The Weber seems to handle what I throw at it, no problem.. I would have blown 4 D 130's in the time I've had the Weber, and thats the only reason I use it...
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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KENNY KRUPNICK
From:
Columbus, Ohio
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Jim Dickinson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2009 10:32 pm
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I do not know about the Weber California, to me it does not look like it ought to sound like a JBL. Firstly, the JBL has a 4" voice coil, the California has a 2", the JBL has a cast frame, the California has a stamped one, the JBL has a shallow cone, the California a deep one, the JBL has precision machining in the motor, I'll bet the California does not. I am not saying the California does not work well or resemble the sound of the D130, from my opinion, I just don't think it can replicate it perfectly.
Now, on the other hand, the Weber Neo 15 greatly resembles the D130 in motor magnet strength, same voice coil size, cast basket etc. The JBLs were very well made, there is no doubt of that, but, they were made, not created by magic or out of ethereal ectoplasm by a higher power. They can be recreated, they are made out of metal, paper, copper,- in other words, parts. JBL cones were made by one of four cone manufacturers, three are still in business, all three have the JBL cone molds because JBL bought cones from all of them, oftimes different vendors for the same model. The cones can be made- today, the voice coils can be wound, the magnets can be bought, the magnet maker JBL used is still in business and has the molds, etc. A JBL D130 copy can be made and will sound the same.
I am President of a little internet Loudspeaker Company. Right now we are redesigning, our first wholly made product, previously we marketed for another small company, ought to surface some time later this year, and it will be a horn driver. Previously, we thought of building the D130, we had the right height speaker basket mold, we know where to get all the right parts. The Weber Neo 15, not the California appears to me like it will sound very-very close to a D130. since Ted has introduced this driver we have decided not to go there. We still may make a couple of ALTEC type guitar speakers reproductions, but that's a way off too. I personally really like the OLD Altec 12" 417.
So before you write things off as only being available by buying antiques, there may be another way, Jim |
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Jerry Humphries
From:
Jasper, AL.
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Posted 10 Jun 2009 7:25 pm
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| Thanks guys. Great info, Ray i have sent you a pm. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 4:32 am
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| Jim D., keep us posted. Sounds very interesting. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2009 6:14 am
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| I replaced the JBL D-130F in my Twin with the Weber Neo 15. I gave it a good 6 months worth of weekend gigs to get well broken in. The Neo sounds very good, however it breaks up earlier and to a greater degree than the JBL at high volume. I have gone back to the JBL. |
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Jim Dickinson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2009 9:42 am
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Yesterday I spoke with Jerry Hubbard, he wonders how you like the D130 copy he designed and Eminence built, which is in the Steel king and Jazz King amps. He said he tried to get it as close to sounding like the JBL as he could, with the parts available. He said the speaker measured nearly identically and those who tried it liked it.
From my contact with Eminence, their model of speaker building is to make what ever they make from a "stock" set of pieces they already have in parts inventory. The only two exceptions they make are voice coils, which they make in house and cones, which they purchase from the cone companies. Jerry's design was a departure for them, while all the metal in the motor was stock, the frame, voice coils and cone were custom.
What's interesting is that Eminence uses standard cold roll steel diameters for their pole pieces, therefore their poles are exactly 3 or 4 inches.
Altec and JBL used the same 3" voice coil dimensions, 2.981 for the three inchers, and JBL used some where around 3.91 for their 4 inch poles. I have been told that this corresponded to a standard wine bottle dimension, which they used to dry their early voice coils on, can't confirm that, may be an audio legend. Eminence has managed to eliminate many machining steps others like JBL still do, but some say their overall product does not meet the tolerances of those like JBL. However, the Eminences cost less than a third of what a new comparable JBL would, and satisfy the bulk of the market. I guess, if one wants real quality, you have to pay for it.
As for the Weber Neo 15 braking up sooner, Jerry said it could have be for a number of reasons, depth of top plate, voice coil or perhaps a slightly different cone. he strongly doubted the magnet type would make that significant of a difference, if the flux density was the same.
Jerry also said, and this somewhat contradicts my earlier statement, that although the cone makers still have the original cone molds. that some of the vintage cone pulps are no longer available, probably due to EPA rules on certain ingredients. He said when he was at ALTEC, they had to have the cone makers adjust the pulp mixes to keep some loudspeakers sounding the same with the new formulations. Some of the very old recone kits had to be abandoned with disclaimers that the then current replacements, would not sound the same. Now, most are totally unavailable
Perhaps, not everything is progress.
Jim |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2009 11:06 pm
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| D 130's blow left and right on me, otherwise thats all I would use.. The Weber seems to handle what I throw at it, no problem |
Personally I don't care for the sound of D130's and the Weber California is more to my liking when I want a clean, high-headroom speaker. The D130 has a harsh top end tpo my ears and is very treble-heavy.
And blowing them is all too common, primarily due to the JBL literature that touted them as 100-watt speakers. The designer of the D130 and D130F has spent years trying to straighten that out (he wasn't responsible for it.). JBL's marketing whiz-bang guys wrote specs that showed the handled 100 watts continuous power - which has nothing to do with using them in musical instrument amplifiers. It's a sine-wave measurement.
A d130 is a 25 watt speaker; a D130F 1 60 watt (and that's when they were new - by now they will have lost 25-30% of their power-handling capabilites.
Yet folks will still make new baffles and stuff them in Twins (or just get a Vibrasonic) - and be confused when the first time the amp is cranked the speaker makes a sound like a bedsheet being torn in half...
The California WILL handle 100 watts, and is one of the more economical choices as well. I don't consider it a JBL replacement since the tonal focus is different - to me it's better as it's warmer sounding with no icepick highs.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Rich Gilbert
From:
Freeport, Maine
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Posted 14 Jun 2009 6:42 am
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| I haven't tried the Webers, I've been curious about them, but it will be a sad day for me if (or when) my D130F dies on me. It sounds beautiful in my Sho Bud Single Channel amp. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 14 Jun 2009 10:51 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| ...A d130 is a 25 watt speaker; a D130F 1 60 watt... |
My memory of the designer's history (which is somewhere in the old Forum archives) is that there is no difference in the power handling abilities of a D130 and D130F. The D130 was intended as a full spectrum single speaker, or as a woofer in a full spectrum speaker system. For handling that kind of bass frequencies it was rated at 25w RMS. As a guitar speaker, with a more limited frequency range, it was rated at 60w, by trial and error. The voice coil gap was made wider in the F series to make it hardier for transporting (as opposed to a stationary speaker), not necessarily to give it more power handling ability. Theoretically that should make the F series slightly less efficient; but I've played the two side-by-side and can't hear any difference.
Some steelers use them without blowing in Vibrasonics and Twins, probably because they tread lightly on the volume pedal, and maybe don't dime both the channel and master volumes. Also, some people seem to put 8 ohm D130s in a 4 ohm Twin, and that also cuts down a little on the power the speaker feels.
Fenders main use of JBLs back in the day was two D120Fs in the Twins, and two D130Fs in huge closed-back cabs for use with the Dual Showman. That's 120 watts of speaker handling ability for a 100w amp, and so was reasonable. The later 135w ultralinears may be a borderline situation. But, I have also read that the power ratings of Fenders (what you see painted on at the speaker jack) was not the real output, which was somewhat less, but was intended to describe the minimum speaker handling capacity that should be used with the amp.
I personally love that JBL hi-fi sparkle in the highs, and do not find them harsh with modern pedal steel pickups. I am presently awaiting the delivery of my first Weber Neo 12, and I hope it has that same sparkle. |
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Jim Dickinson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2009 10:54 am
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Jim,
You are right the D130s, in their original form are very low power speakers, the same as their period counterparts, the ALTECs, EVs, Stephans, Jensen’s, etc. The voice coil supports were made of Kraft paper, and the assemblies were held together by Bostik rubber cement, originally intended for shoes. I have seen old Jensen and Celestion guitar speakers that actually caught on fire, as long as they were not used hard, they worked just fine. If the Weber California used these products in its internals, it would be a 15 watt speaker.
In the 70s ALTEC was the first to use higher temperature Kapton for the voice coil support and better glues. Since then, many other high temperature adhesives and better support materials have been developed. If one installed current products into the D130 it would handle 200 watts easily. My ears do not hear any difference in sound quality with the high power parts, all other things being equal. There are some purport to being able to hear grass grow who say they can hear the difference, my experience says no.
Then one brings in the amplifier, the old Fenders were made with a certain amount of distortion built in, they were made to break up when pushed hard. Often Steel Players like a cleaner sound. (See previous topic- Tube Amplifiers).
The JBL D130 has a precision magnetic assembly with excellent magnet coupling which results in better sensitivity in the upper registers. The combination of speaker/amplifier is what results in the overall tone quality, some like this, some like that, I personally like things clean and more defined. If the fellow who put the JBLs in his Fender likes the “tearing bed sheet” sound, and it sells his CDs, more power to him, I think it would make me run and hide. I all comes down to personal preference.
Rich,
Don’t despair, the JBLs (and the Altec’s, early EVs) were beautifully made, you can restore that thing almost forever with the proper recone parts. Please remember that who does it ought to be able to check the flux density in the magnetic gap and if necessary recharge the magnet as alnico magnets have a propensity to discharge after time and especially with abuse. Jerry told me that at Altec they used to see their alnico guitar speakers come in for repair with absolutely dead magnets due to extreme overpowering. There seems to be no limits to the degree of damage Rock and Rollers can inflict upon equipment.
Jim |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 17 Jun 2009 10:06 am
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My Randall Steel Man 500 came with a 4-ohm E130. I tried a reconed D130F but it tended to heat up after an hour or so of hard use and I could hear the voice coil starting to rub in the gap so I went back to the E series speaker. It works so good that I found another one and put it into my second SGA500.
Many gigs later with the amp set between 9 and 10 to keep up with guitars and bass both speakers are still going strong - I was once told by a drummer friend that when I laid on the volume pedal for a solo it sucked all of the air out of the room (this is of course the POLITE way to ask someone to turn the volume down) and I have yet to hear another steel amp sound as good or as loud.
It would be nice to lose those extra pounds from the E series' ceramic magnet but performance and dependability rule the day here in the land of Dave....
That's my $0.25
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