Kline question - roller nuts?

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

Hello Klinoids, (or is it Kline-ons?),
How does the gauged roller nut thing work? Are there different sized gauged roller nuts for each size string? And when one buys a steel guitar (Kline or not) does the maker ask what your tuning is and what gauged strings you use in order to put the right roller nuts in place? I would hope so. I bought my Kline used and now after I changed the tuning I have a couple of strings that need a better fit on their roller nuts. How do I get new ones if I need them? Thank you very much, Don

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

stevepo · From: Clarion, PA. USA

Don,

I can tell you that my Kline D10 has sizing of the grooves in the rollers at the nut. I can not tell you just how many different size roller grooves are on the guitar. This detail on sizing is not noticeable after the first few frets when playing but is an example of the level of detail that some manufacturers execute. If your current string gauges vary greatly from the originals then this may be an issue for you. I never noticed small size changes on my guitar. I am sure a machine shop could make whatever you might need.

Steve Porter, Clarion, PA.
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Steve Porter
Kline, McVay, & Emmons
Webb, LTD, N112
Steelman.Porter@yahoo.com

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Don,
I've been thinkin' about this since I saw your post yesterday. I've come to the same conclusion as stevepo. A machine shop seems to be the only answer. They might actually be able to re-machine your existing rollers. If you go that route, make sure they understand what needs to be done, cuz if the cut too deep or too wide???????????

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Here is my experience with Kline rollers. My first guitar was a 1968 Emmons PP bought new from Emmons, picked it up at the factory. Some of the strings rattled when the bar was on the 1st fret. Had to bear down on the bar to stop the rattle. My 2nd guitar was a Kline universal. It did not have any string rattle and the rollers were a larger diameter than the Emmons. My 3rd, and present guitar, is a 1974 Emmons PP 12 string extended E-9th. It had the original rollers and had the string rattle. I ordered 12 gauged rollers from Emmons and installed them. It still has the string rattle. I don't know why the Kline rollers were just right. I guess I just always used the same gauge strings that came on it and the rollers were gauged for those diameters. To get rid of string rattle, I think the rollers would have to be made specifically for the gauge of strings that you are using. This may be the reason that the Emmons gauged rollers don't work properly. My strings gauges probably just don't match up.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"I don't know why the Kline rollers were just right."

George, that's because they were made by Joe Kline! I've always used the same gauges that came on my Uni. So,,, I think a machine shop, and a good machinist who understands what's really required is gonna be a must for different strings. I'd get in touch with Paul Redmond.

Connie Mack · From: phoenicia, new york

hey don. i agree about the machinist advice.

maybe in the future we can all benefit from this wonderful invention....

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=158667
_________________
82'sho-bud u-12, frankendekely u-12, bride of frankendekley u-12, a whole mess of other instruments...finger still messed up but getting better...

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Don Burrows make them ..if I have it spelled right.
He makes them right, and a good guy too
http://bsgsteelguitars.com/
sales@bsgsteelguitars.com
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

Thank you very much folks. Don

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Thanks!!! I always gage rollers to the customer's string gages. When necessary, I build a new mandrel for my Harig head to adapt to the axle diameter of the roller itself, then I use a contoured grinding wheel on my surface grinder to cut 90-degree "vee's" in the rollers starting with the smallest diameter gage and resolving the "vee's" at the largest diameter. I use a very hard-bond, small grain size wheel for this as well as a lubricant to prevent wheel breakdown in the process. I guarantee concentricity and accuracy. All rollers are then marked with a small carbide burr for string diameter. It's expensive to do it this way, but I personally hate out-of-gage rollers, so I have always gone the extra mile to do it this way and always will. It averages out to about nine bucks a roller shop charge.
PRR

David Doggett · Posted 20 May 2009 7:01 am

Paul, could you explain how you determine the V depth (or width) for each diameter? Is it by trial and error, or do you have a formula?

Martin Weenick · From: Lecanto, FL, USA

I have always heard to use a 60 degree tool and make the depth one half the diameter of the string. Anyone know for sure ???? Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Yes, I do use a formula for the 90-degree vee's. A 90-degree vee distributes the tension on the roller equally top to side, yet splits the load in a proportionate "half"...don't ask me to explain that one...a mold engineer taught me that when learning which angle to use in "camming" side cores on injection molds back in the 1960's.
Anyhow, the first thing I do is determine how high above the rollers I want the strings to seat, then subtract that from my eventual depth numbers to arrive at a "zero" setting for the dial on my surface grinder. The depths of all the grooves are determined by multiplying the string RADIUS...not the diameter...by 2.4142. The resultant number/dimension will be the amount that the tool (in my case the surface-grinder wheel) must be moved in PER SIDE to achieve the proper depth from zero. Some rollers may already have a groove in them (obviously), that has been cut to a factory-determined depth. I go slightly beyond that depth to establish a starting point. In most cases, this method will not allow the string to ride slightly above the roller. It will only allow that when "blank" (un-grooved) rollers are used. But the gaging process is still the same using existing rollers...you start off with your smallest string...say, an .011" string. I dial down to .01328 reading. The next may be a .013" string. I dial down to a .01569 reading on my surface grinder. The next may be a .014" string. I dial down to a reading of .01690 on my grinder...and so forth.
This method can be used if using a 90-degree lathe tool and holding the rollers on a fixed mandrel in the chuck or collet of the lathe...do NOT remove the mandrel until the process is complete. I find the surface grinder and wheel method far more accurate than the lathe method, but either will work. I mention this because with keyless guitars, one should always try to keep the groove in the center of the roller to ensure alignment between the tuning arm and the roller itself. On a keyhead guitar, it doesn't much matter because the strings are all over the map anyhow.
The trick to a "no-buzz" gage job FWIW is to always "form" the string with your thumb and index finger over the roller after the string is pulled up to pitch. It would eventually get there on its own, but you can save a lot of extra re-tuning by making the string conform to the roller from the get-go.
I have used this method and formula since the early 1980's and have never had a string buzz problem even as low as 1/3 of the first fret in most cases with only the weight of the bar on the strings.
If anyone out there in Forum-land wants a copy of my entire gaging chart, just send a SASE to me at---
Paul Redmond
PO Box 398
Walnut IL 61376-0398
That includes manufacturers if y'all are interested. The chart goes from .008" thru .080" strings.
PRR

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