Meantone

Jonathan Shacklock · From: London, UK

I've been using sixth comma meantone to tune up E9th for some time now - see these threads for previous discussion of this tuning:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=135112&highlight=meantone
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=151592&highlight=meantone

I like the way my guitar sounds in tune with itself and it seems to smooth some things out tonally, but playing with a band I've noticed I really sound flat, by the markers, around the 10th to 14th frets, especially in the key of C. Is this a characteristic I should expect of the E9 meantone tuning, and compensate for with the bar, or should I be looking at a different culprit (eg other band members' tuners/instruments, cabinet drop etc)?

No keyboards in this band, just guitar and bass. I'm going to try some different tuning offsets at the next rehearsal (just, Newman, equal) but I'd prefer not to have to give up the sweetness of meantone.

Any thoughts?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

If you tune meantone with the 9th tone (F# on an E9th) at the center, playing right above the fret with no pedals should sound pretty sweet. If it doesn't, the first thing I'd check would be the fretboard position, with a tape measure. Is your 12th fret exactly midway between the nut and bridge?

As with any non-equal temperament, you have to adjust your bar position slightly for some pedal combinations. Aim slightly sharp for A+B. Aim very sharp for A+F. Aim slightly flat when lowering your E strings.

Most experienced players do this by ear without even thinking about it. The A+F position is the one that surprises people. I've heard beginners say that they don't use it because it always sounds out of tune. You need to aim about 1/4 of a fret sharp to play the A+F combination in tune.
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Comparing your tuning to that of a guitarist during the course of a song or a set is dangerous. If the guitarist does not check his tuning often, bending strings or using a tremolo arm / whammy bar, in addition to the strings warming/cooling from touching the hands can render the guitar WAAAAY out of tune. He (or she) is probably not the best reference point.

What I would do (and have done)
Use REHEARSAL to work on the overall tuning of the band. As soon as you hear a problem, STOP. Check the steel vs guitar(s). Everyone play the chord that caused you to stop. Are you in tune, as a band, on an open chord (like E or A) but not playing up the neck, either
1. The guitar has faulty intonation
2. Your intonation is not perfect
or
3. Both

I prefer to avoid the visual reference point. If your tonic note is in tune with whatever reference you are using and the other chord tones are off you should check how you are tuning those other tones. Just because the math works doesn't make you PLAY in tune. That is predicated on ear / hand coordination.

With two guitars, a steel, and a bass, you have an almost impossible situation: 36 strings that must be in tune with each other -- up and down the neck. If just one guitar player is a bit off in tuning or intonation, the steel, the other guitar, and the bass can SOUND out of tune (whether they are or not) and, on the bandstand, it is difficult to pinpoint who the offender is.

To diagnose and fix the problem, work on just playing C to F -- 8th fret NP to 13th fret NP. Can everyone play one measure of C and one of F in tune? Play those same chords in different positions -- the guitarist too. LISTEN CAREFULLY to each instrument, both on its own and with the others.

A band needs to learn to play in tune together just like they learn new songs. Tune your instrument so it sounds in tune with itself then add other instruments.

It probably has nothing to do with what tuning methodology one uses (up to a point), especially with no keyboard. I have used 1/6 comma meantone before but went back to my own compromise between JI and ET -- I cut most of the offsets in half and tune the E's to 4-8cents sharp. Works for me. I didn't like the A's nearly 8 cents sharp. In reality, most folks' ears are pretty forgiving and a range of tuning can work well.

In my experience (FLAME SUIT READY), it's usually the guitar player -- esp ones who love to bend strings -- and most often the 3rd string (sometimes the 2nd).
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I did a gig once where all I could hear was the fretless bass player and the singers. It was impossible to know if I was playing in tune or not.
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Fiddle players can be fun too. Whoa!

_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Jonathan Shacklock · From: London, UK

Thanks guys, very helpful, I can start narrowing down these other options now. 12th fret marker checks out. The guitarist has the best ears in the band and he doesn't bend notes - I do suspect his tuner though: a pocket POD. I am playing a lot of A+F as well as lots of A pedal minors, so that's probably half the problem. I'll stick to meantone for now and work on my bar placement. Since I'm going flat around the middle of the neck I guess some extra bar pressure would help - might even try a heavier bar.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I've had intonation problems at the 11th fret that exaggerated the false harmonics of old strings. Also, strange resonances in the guitar itself are most noticeable when playing near the center of the neck.

Do the notes sound pure, or are you hearing strange overtones that make them sound out of tune?
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Jonathan Shacklock · From: London, UK

Yes in fact, that is another thing - I'm beginning to realise this is an accumulation of problems - I do suffer from the old 4th string ring. I can usually reduce the unwanted overtones by picking at the 24th fret but I wouldn't be surprised if strange harmonics are adding to the misery. Let's see: tune up, remember what to play, push pedals, adjust bar intonation on the fly, check right hand at 24th fret, use knees, pick strings, volume pedal, FX pedal - and don't forget to smile!

Second gig at the weekend... Shocked

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

You're picking near the 24th fret and hearing intonation problems when you're near the 12th fret. Sounds like false harmonic overtones from old strings to me.
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Jonathan Shacklock · From: London, UK

I've changed strings and it helps, but I've always had harmonic problems with this guitar. Picking at the 24th reduces the ringing so it's barely audible but yes I'm sure it's not helping me sound in tune. I feel better armed for the next rehearsal though, thanks guys.

Mark Durante · From: St. Pete Beach FL

This is a can of worms we all have to deal with, there is no easy solution especially when playing in a band. Just because band members tune with an electronic tuner doesn't mean they are really in tune and try telling them that! The differences between JI and ET are vast and trying to get one instrument to sound in tune is hard enough let alone a whole band. It doesn't help if a band member with suspect tuning insists on playing at a high volume also. Unfortunately many musicians don't hear the out of tune-ness that some of us do and they get irritated when told to tune up all the time. The flatness problem has bugged me quite a bit too and over time I've tempered my tuning more, when I listen back to recordings when I first started I sound way flat compared with the other guys even though I know my guitar was in tune with itself.
There really is no way to always be "in tune", it's all compromise. You gotta admire guys like Emmons, Franklin, Day, Green, and other greats who manage to make it sound so right.

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