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Topic: Is sustain over blown? |
Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 5 May 2009 12:51 pm |
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At a jam last night we had a long winded discussion about sustain, pickups and string gauges.
The most lively discussion seemed to be how much sustain we actually need and use on a steel guitar and electric lead guitars in a band setting. The sustain on my steel is almost double of our band leader’s Fender Strat. Our drummer thought it was all a bunch of wasted blow heart hogwash because what’s the purpose of it all.
Of course the argument moved to, why are guitar players so hooked on how long the guitar’s string sustain is. No one who plays in a band hits a single string and lets the note ring on and on and on.
Are these guys right? Do, typically steel guitar players, put too much emphasis on the sustain of the strings and pick ups? Better still, should we be focusing so greatly on sustain when, for the most part, we don’t really require it all that much when playing in a band setting?
_________________
(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!) |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 5 May 2009 12:59 pm Re: Is sustain over blown?
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| Les Anderson wrote: |
| should we be focusing so greatly on sustain when, for the most part, we don’t really require it all that much when playing in a band setting? |
Probably not. Especially since steel players generally greatly enhance their sustain by use of the volume pedal. The only place the instrument's natural sustain really may matter is in the very high range, where notes on any plucked string instrument are inherently shorter in duration. If the string's vibrations actually die out quickly, the volume pedal can't help. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 5 May 2009 1:34 pm
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For standard guitars, I like to see a strong sustain because it proves to me that the body is resonant. You can play off sustain and get a lot of dynamics going with solos and stuff. Having said all that, I use a compressor which ups the sustain anyway. But you can't beat a nice resonant Les Paul. 
Steel-wise? Not sure what to think. Brint nailed it by saying that the high notes can get choked with a poor resonating steel. There's nothing worse than a steel dying up top. I think it is the cause of the sale of many steel guitars. Lack of sustain up top. It's an annoyance. No amount of talent on the volume pedal will get you around a guitar that has no sustain up top. But unlike a standard guitar, I think the sustain on a steel has a lot to do with the changer. For standard guitars, it seems more about the body. At least to me. |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 5 May 2009 2:21 pm
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Probably better to have a bit more than you need so you don't find yourself unexpectedly running out of room. A friend of mine calls this the "Law of One More"
I use excessive sustain as an effect, i.e. infinite notes using feedback or an ebow, lots of fuzz, etc.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 May 2009 3:03 pm
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| Do, typically steel guitar players, put too much emphasis on the sustain of the strings and pick ups? |
A lot of times, yes. I feel steelers, like (electric) straight guitarists, often rely far too much on sustain. Most think that you can't play an instrument without tons of sustain, and sound good. Not true. Have you ever heard a marimba with tons of sustain? How about a concert harp? Steel drums, maybe? How much sustain does a mandolin have? Or a banjo? Ever listened to Segovia?
Chris said lack of sustain up top is an annoyance. But both Chalker and Mooney played guitars noted for poor sustain, and yet they still managed to be "greats" of the steel world!
You can play with the guitar, or you can play the guitar.
"But...I like, and can play, that loooong, hanging Hughey and Emmons stuff. I can't play all that fast stuff like Jernigan, Franklin, Chalker, and them guys."
Well, at least you know where the problem is. |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 5 May 2009 4:49 pm Well there should be enough
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Hears the delimia of a basement player, if I actully had a basement. I think IMHO that a steel guitar should have enough sustain to carry you throught s several fret slide. I am not experienced enough to know how may frets this should be however. So, I guess the importance depends on the particular playes ability and style of playing
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 5 May 2009 11:01 pm
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| I think Mr. Harper nailed it. You need all the sustain you can get to do that sliding through phrases without picking the strings more than once, which I think is one of the most beautiful and unique things the Steel guitar is capable of. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 5 May 2009 11:07 pm
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When I began playing classical guitar back in my teens, I was told that the best guitars were the ones with the longest sustain. So this question has roots deep in string instrument history. Guitar makers have been building to increase sustain for centuries. I do think that modern electric guitar players overuse the sustain capabilities of the guitars. That is why I tend to find acoustic music more listenable. But it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. The added sustain of an electric instrument can be very effective if it's not overused.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 5 May 2009 11:09 pm
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Listen to Buddy Emmons playing "Blue Jade"
He strikes the strings once at fret one then slides to frets 3,4 6,8 and 13.It is a fairly slow slide up.
Billy |
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James Martin (U.K.)
From:
Watford, Herts, United Kingdom * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 May 2009 12:07 am
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| Would a sustain unit be the answer? |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 6 May 2009 3:19 am Sustain Unit
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| James Martin wrote: |
| Would a sustain unit be the answer? |
Yes, but we already have at least two, the digital delay and the reverb, both function as sustainers. Heres the rub to me The more you electronically modify the sound the closser you get to becomming a and I know I am going to mispell this, a synthersizer or maybe a keyboard. I said in my opinnion.
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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Jack Stanton
From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
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Posted 6 May 2009 4:27 am
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| Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it! |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 6 May 2009 5:18 am
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| Jack Stanton wrote: |
| Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it! |
Yes I agree and learn to more effectively use what you have. That is the challange
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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Robby Springfield
From:
Viola, AR, USA
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Posted 6 May 2009 7:36 am
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If your playing a song at 120 beats per minute, sustain has little relevance. But playing a ballad is much different. Gadgets for sustain is not what I would look for, but rather a guitar that has that quality. It is a very important ingredient in a steel. The new G2 is blessed with this gift.
_________________
Robby
www.power3productions.com |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 6 May 2009 8:51 am Define Sustain!
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The sound spectrum changes as time passes = 1,2,3, seconds. The greatest change is in the first few milliseconds. The highs fall off quickly, and the 100 to 300 HZ remain...this is what you hear and call sustain.
Different PSGs = different results. To see comparisons in graphic form, go to pages 3 & 4 at:
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/
A "sustain box" would have to compensate for the freq fall off...but at what point in time?
Some folk bank heavilly on the hi freq fallodff effect to get the "bite" when they first pick...the Hawaiian style players generally try to minimize/eliminate the bite effect.
"overblown?"..it is what you like. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 May 2009 9:17 am
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"Our drummer thought"
Now that's an oxymoronic statement! |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 6 May 2009 10:26 am
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It's not just the length of the sustain, for both 6 string and steel, but the envelope as well... how the sound of the guitar blooms (or doesn't!) after the note is picked. Some guitars have an initial attack followed by a rise in a different batch of harmonics, some just decay quickly from the initial attack, and so on. Differences in taste and style radically affect perception and desire for these characteristics.
A guitar or steel guitar that responds in just the way one likes to hear it is a real joy to play next to one that doesn't.
It's funny, but most of the good drummers I know have similar interest in the decay of their drums. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 6 May 2009 11:10 am
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Banjo by its nature can only be a staccato instrument, like a drum. Steel guitar is capable of being a legato instrument, like a saxophone. Spanish guitar falls somewhere in between banjo and steel guitar. To play the long, flowing lines that are seamless (that is, without constantly plucking the strings to excite more notes) either the steel guitar must have a natural resonance or the player must achieve it through technique, predominantly vibrato. I'd rather have too much resonance than too little. It's easier to cut a note off than it is to make it last an eternity.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 6 May 2009 11:25 am
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Sustain: Circa 1967; Courtesy of Peter Green and the infamous "Green" '59 Les Paul... Awesome  :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWFFqffopb8
Is sustain all it's hyped up to be? In this case, an emphatic YES!
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 6 May 2009 1:06 pm
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Feedback is cheating! 
(Not really--but it IS a different question from whether the instrument itself has sustain!) |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 May 2009 1:35 pm
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
| Steel guitar is capable of being a legato instrument, like a saxophone. ...To play the long, flowing lines that are seamless (that is, without constantly plucking the strings to excite more notes) either the steel guitar must have a natural resonance or the player must achieve it through technique, predominantly vibrato. |
I understand that, Herb. But are there really guitars out there that an accomplised player could not play "Blue Jade" on, and do a credible job? (I mentioned that song only because someone else brought it up.) Honestly, I could understand if the lack of sustain thing was limited to one or two brands, but almost every brand has been been complained about in this area, at one time or another.
To put it more succinctly, do you think all these complaints about poor sustain are valid? Or, are they just a convenient excuse for something lacking somewhere else?
Looking at Ed Packard's charts (page 4), it's really spooky how close the #3 Emmons, the #4 Deckley, and the #5 MSA really are, on paper (to me, anyway). |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 6 May 2009 5:10 pm
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I kinda agree with Chris L. and Herb I guess. As Chris said, some guitars just don't sustain well above the 12th fret. Playing a guitar like that just seems like an uphill battle.
Maybe the listener can't tell when an accomplished player makes a guitar 'work' without sustain via good technique, and certainly good sustain won't fix bad technique, but I'd bet most players want what Herb describes; i.e. more sustain is a good thing, why make it harder than it has to be? JMO...
Hey Herb, John B. says hi! Had a blast over there today, he's sure got some good stories.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 7 May 2009 4:36 am sustain
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| I think everybody hears sustain differently. What I look for is a steel guitar that'll sustain without effects. Plug into a volume pedal, then directly to the amp. A steel amp. To me, simple is better. I match a guitar with a pick up that sounds good in it and go from there. My current choice of p/u at the moment is a Emmons single coil. I replaced a PF-I with it. PF-I was fine but I was just looking for something that would put me closer to a tone between Hughey & Emmons on the slow stuff and ballads. I look for something close to Jernigan and Jim Murphy on the fast pickin'. Like I said everybody hears differently, in my opinion. Getting back to the amp & guitar thing, once I find the sustain factor, I'll usually use a little delay, not much though, depending on the building or room we're in. I have plenty of sustain/tone with the following: Remington S-10 1/2, Emmons p/u, Nv-112 amp, Hilton pedal and a DD-3 delay. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 7 May 2009 10:30 am
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Donny
I think guitars are individuals, of course, even within the same brand.
A few years back I was playing ______ guitar and though it sounded great in the lower registers, once you got above fret 14, you had to really work the vibrato to get it to sustain.
I was doing an overdub session about that time and was listening to another track that a good friend of mine played on. You could hear he was working the vibrato really hard in the upper frets, listening to the string noise. I asked the engineer, "he was playing a _______ guitar, wasn't he?" The engineer was sort of amazed that I knew what guitar my friend was playing, but I could hear the tonal drop off from his bar technique.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 7 May 2009 2:20 pm
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That's one reason why I seldom play 'clean'.
_________________
Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind! |
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