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Topic: Playing With No Volume Pedal? |
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 3:51 pm |
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Is there anyone out there that plays without a volume pedal? I really mean without, no pedal on the floor. Mooney uses both feet a bunch, so he is a player who can play without one. He has one though, I think. I was thinking about trying two feet on the pedals, as I have the one KL. Any advice on that style?
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 4:11 pm
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| On fast stuff, you can easily do without the volume pedal. It helps give you more expression and dynamics on the slow stuff, however, and that's why most players use one. My pedal setup is fairly unique, and is set up so I don't have to do a lot of two-footin'. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 4:28 pm funny you should ask
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I just discovered how good my 1974 MSA can sound without my (equally old) Goodrich light beam volume pedal, so I did a couple of gigs last weekend with no volume pedal at all, and the tone and intensity were awesome. The hum from the single coil was nonstop, of course, whereas when you use a VP the hum only happens when you step on it so the notes usually drown it out. And of course you can't make a chord swell or use the VP to pump up sustain. But I was playing with a high-energy band that doesn't do any slow songs, so it seemed fabulous. I could get great dynamics just by picking gently sometimes and harder other times. And I have found that playing without the VP greatly improves my playing and muting technique because I can't use it to cover mistakes and have to do everything right the first time. Plus I could tap my right foot with the beat! I know it's totally unorthodox and that steel traditionalists would be horrified and dismissive, but the audiences at both gigs were ecstatic, and nobody in the band noticed a difference at all!
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I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 5:05 pm
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I have played non pedal for some years without one. I really dislike what I consider unnaturally long sustain. I have recently bought a pedal guitar. And I have no plans to get a volume pedal at this time.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 5:26 pm
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Seems like many top C6 players spend some time with both feet on the pedals. Leaving that volume pedal at the right spot and coming back to it smoothly is an art in itself.
Doug’s piece was better than I expected (he’s obviously gotten good at that), but to me it had a dry sound and felt like he was running out of breadth at places. But it had a nice vintage almost lap steel sound that was surprisingly good. One thing is that you can get by with a much smaller amp without a volume pedal. Even a 10-30w amp is very loud, if you are not attacking your notes with the volume pedal backed off. Still, I just love the liquid sustain good pedal steelers get with the volume pedal and a big amp with endless clean headroom. To me that is an essential part of the fun and beauty of the instrument, and no way would I ever give that up. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 6:00 pm
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I prefer the natural punch and sustain of the guitar itself, and using a volume pedal to subtly maintain volume level to me is as bad as 6-stringers who use a compressor to control volume/attack/sustain.
I have one - usually so I can shut off the signal to use my clip-on tuner without being audible.
I also use a volume pedal on 6-string....and there I use it more than I do on steel!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 7:19 pm
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| Moon does use a volume pedal and he is real slick at moving his right foot on to the pedals and back. Jody. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 7:21 pm
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Yeah, whadda ya expect from a guy who plays through a Marshall 800 stack... Sliff-san that is. -L-
oops! Gotta go... Bye!! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2009 9:05 pm
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I play my Fender without a volume pedal because it takes two feet on the pedals. I don't gig with it, though.
Leonard T. Zinn plays non-pedal standing up, with no VP.
I sometimes take my foot off the volume pedal when playing blues, rock or folk. I don't like the effect in those kinds of music, and it's too easy to accidentally use it if my foot's on it.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 12:14 am
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I inadvertently left my volume pedal at home last Sunday when I was playing in church. It was no sweat and nobody noticed, neither the band or the congregation.
I was playing pedal steel through a Roland Jazz Chorus 55, and had to set the volume WAAYYY low, so that was the only tricky part. When I play standup steel I never use a vol. pedal anyway.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 2:01 am
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Lew Huston never used a floor volume pedal, although he did use the volume control on his Fender steel.
I did a CD project for a singer about 9 or 10 years ago and set the volume level with the pedal and never touched it again on the project. Listening to the CD you can't tell the difference. |
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Don Sulesky
From:
Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 3:36 am
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In the past I had a student who liked to pump the volume pedal with every note.
I had read in an old Guitar Player Magazine an article by Jeff Newman to set the volume pedal at a decent level then put your foot on the pedal bar and practice playing that way and it will help eliminate the pumping of the pedal.
I tried it with him and got good results.
When I play my lap steel I do not use a volume pedal and control my volume with my attack of the strings.
Same as I do when playing my dobro.
Don |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 5:15 am
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| Rick, Danny Sneed is one of the few who can play without a VP and do it convincingly. Heck, I am usually halfway into listening to his clip before I realize that he doesn't use one! |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 6:12 am
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| Playing rock and jazzed-up blues, the attack and decay are really important - I seem to have guitars that sustain too well, in some ways. In those instances I use it more like you'd use a volume control on a guitar, to control the overdrive of the preamp. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 10:05 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
I prefer the natural punch and sustain of the guitar itself, and using a volume pedal to subtly maintain volume level to me is as bad as 6-stringers who use a compressor to control volume/attack/sustain.
I have one - usually so I can shut off the signal to use my clip-on tuner without being audible.
I also use a volume pedal on 6-string....and there I use it more than I do on steel! |
Jim, I just wish you would mention your lack of volume pedal use and disdain for traditional steel volume pedal sustain technique when you proselytize for steelers to use lower wattage amps. Seems only fair, and might avoid some confusion among guitar players learning steel who wonder why traditional steel amps are so much more powerful than they felt the need for on guitar. |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 10:34 am
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How much of the tone/overdrive issue using small amps is simply a speaker that breaks up with the wide frequencies thrown into it from a PSG? I don't mean BAD issues, just differences. A volume pedal would help to back off the power, and train you to keep the amp from distorting. This would kill the inherent overtones and harmonics generated. No pedal would be best in this case. Like when playing a Gibson SG into a 50w Plexi using a bottleneck. You would control dynamics with the fingers and pressure. A question:
How much classic country do either Jim S or David D play? You both use tube amps.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 1:53 pm
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Rick, good questions. I don’t have a good feel for how much distortion comes from an amp, and how much from a speaker. I have many amps, old Silvertone, silver-face Princeton Reverb, Peavey Delta Blues, SF Pro Reverb, SF Dual Showman Reverb, Super Twin Reverb, Peavey NV400, and a few others. These range from about 5 watts to 180 watts. I know which ones distort, and at what point, but that is mostly the amps. It is difficult to learn about distortion of speakers without swapping a bunch of speakers into the same amp, a luxury I haven’t had. My favorite speakers for pedal steel are JBL D130F and D120F. I just make sure the impedance matches the amp, and the power handling is right. So I use a reconed 4 ohm D130F in the Pro, and two 12s or two D130Fs with the Showman or Super Twin (it’s in a head cab). The smaller amps have their stock speakers. I feel most of the distortion comes from the amps, but who knows?
If I were to play only fast blues and fast rock, I could use an amp that distorts without a volume pedal, and choose the amp and set the amp volume so it’s on the edge of distortion, and I control it with my picking. But even for blues and rock, on the slow numbers I usually want a clean tone, with lots of headroom that I can use for clean sustain with the volume pedal, the same as I want for country. So, unless I’m going to bring two amps (which would cause big frowns from the rest of the group on the small stages we play), I have to bring a big clean amp for the slow work. I don’t want my volume pedal bumping and running out of sustain. And I don’t want any distortion for that – tube tone, yes – noticeable distortion, no. When I want distortion on the fast numbers, I use a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube box between the instrument and the VP. This gives me pick-sensitive distortion, and I control the overall volume with the VP as usual. I really don’t want to be trying to manipulate the distortion with my foot – way too clumsy.
When I started on pedal steel in the ‘70s (classic country and country-rock), I had a Maverick and a black-face Super Reverb that had a JBLD130F that was undoubtedly mismatched for the ohms. I bought it used from Sho-Bud and had no clue about the impedance mismatch. It was a very big heavy amp, and had very little clean volume. I really longed for a clean solid-state Peavey steel amp, but couldn’t afford one. When I started back playing a few years ago, the first thing I got was a NV400. I was really happy with it until I started playing with some former punkers playing really loud neo-rockabilly and alt-country. The NV400 didn’t sound good at top volume, and the sterile solid-state tone didn’t sound right with the guitar players Tweed Deluxe. I got a SF Twin, and that sounded right, and at all volume levels. But on slow numbers, I was running out of sustain, and my VP was bumping. I got the Super Twin – I guarantee I have never bumped the VP on that baby.
That group is dormant and I’m now playing with a blues group. I bring the Showman head, the SD Twin Tube box, and a 2x12 or a couple of 1x15s. I need that clean power and the VP for the slow stuff, and we do the occasional country-rock song for which I want a classic country sound (there’s one on our CD). I even like to work the VP for sustain on the fast blues stuff. I have no interest in playing anything on pedal steel without a volume pedal. To me it is an integral part of the instrument. It’s a great challenge to learn the subtleties of good VP work (at least for me), and the only way to learn it is to use it. |
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Chuck Hall
From:
Warner Robins, Ga, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 3:03 pm
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At home I use the volume pedal to set the volume then I take my foot off and put it on the floor. At the club, I use the volume pedal to keep up with the band who constantly change volume and dynamics.
Doug - How can I get the song in your post above (Invitation to the blues) into my BIAB so I can slow the down the tempo. I have been working on the lick you posted in tab section and would like to do it slower then speed it up when I am more comfortable. Also you need to put that in Book two. lol
Chuck  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 8:26 pm
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| Quote: |
| Jim, I just wish you would mention your lack of volume pedal use and disdain for traditional steel volume pedal sustain technique when you proselytize for steelers to use lower wattage amps. |
Why? That comment is completely off topic, and the two are not related - I don't use a volume pedal when I play through a 1000-watt SS power amp either, so you're making assumptions that are wrong.
Rick - as far as classic country, FAR more than you'd (or anyone else) would think, although not with a 21st century sound - my tone sounds more like guys I heard in the 60's and early 70's - Al Perkins, Sneaky Pete, Lloyd Green, Buddy Cage..even Tom Brumley with Buck Owens playing through his Bassman- and to my ears it fits music of that era better than the modern squeaky-clean sound, which has a sterility to it and an absence of attack I find out-of-place.
It's odd in a way how in the 6-string world there's such a concerted effort to get vintage sounds and play instruments with a vintage feel, even playing modern music- and in the steel world it's like most players want to avoid that as much as possible no matter if they're playing 60's or 2009 music. Not everyone - but it IS a pretty common concept.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2009 9:07 pm
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"Seems like many top C6 players spend some time with both feet on the pedals."
I haven't even got my pedal guitar yet. But in looking at arranging the songs I already play non pedal, I can see occassion for two pedals and a knee lever.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 20 Apr 2009 7:07 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| It's odd in a way how in the 6-string world there's such a concerted effort to get vintage sounds and play instruments with a vintage feel, even playing modern music- and in the steel world it's like most players want to avoid that as much as possible no matter if they're playing 60's or 2009 music. Not everyone - but it IS a pretty common concept. |
As far back as the '40s some lap steelers used a volume pedal extensively for increased sustain. Starting in the '50s, Jimmy Day, Ralph Mooney, Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, Pete Drake and many others played E9 pedal steel with heavy volume pedal use through the biggest cleanest amps they could find (mostly Standels and Fender Twins) to give them the volume pedal sustain they wanted and the public loved. That IS 50-year-old vintage pedal steel style and tone (one might call it the golden age of pedal steel). In the '70s many top pros switched over to the cleaner, less expensive, and maintenance free solid-state amps designed specifically for pedal steel. That too IS a 30-year-old classic pedal steel tone (might be called the silver age).
In fact, it is the country steelers who have adhered strongly to vintage tone and style for half a century, while the 6-string world has gone back and forth from new sounds to old ones.
And for the record, I too do not currently play traditional country, and I use nonconventional style and tone. But I well recognize the monumental achievements of pedal steel and amp crafting, and of style, technique and tone among the country steel community for over half a century, in parallel with the various developments in the 6-string rock and roots community. |
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Chuck Hall
From:
Warner Robins, Ga, USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2009 7:53 am
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Thanx
I downloaded and installed Audicity and it works well. Didn't even take long to figure out how to slow down the tempo.
Chuck  |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 20 Apr 2009 10:03 am
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When I first started, I didn't use a volume pedal.
Brett |
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