Tuning the p/p Emmons E9

Walter Bowden · From: Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

Can anyone out there direct me to a thread or website explaining how to tune the p/p Emmons and tweak the raises and lowers? I used to be able to do this but have not been playing for a long time and need a refresher.
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

This John Lacey site is a good resource--

http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

Here you go:

http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

m.

Walter Bowden · From: Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

I did find that site and have printed the pages I need to do the serious stuff which I will avoid right now. The type of tuning procedure I am curious about is the basic "on the bandstand" type. I think the p/p Emmons were tuned using the tuning keys when pedals/levers depressed then adjusted at the changer end w/allen wrench w/pedals/knees at rest. Is that right?
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

Here is the basic procedure:

1. Tune all strings with no raise changes at the key head.

2. Tune all raises at the key head with the lever or pedal engaged

3. Tune all open strings on the raises with the wrench, bottom screws.

4. Tune all lowers with the wrench at screws, top.

5. Check open strings

m.

Walter Bowden · From: Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

Thanks Matthew
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Matthew Prouty has already stated the concise version, so let me attempt to confuse you with my long-winded version:

A few years ago, I sold my S12 P/P to a gentleman who had never owned one. Shortly after he received it, the man inquired as to the best way to tune the strings and the changes. What follows is what I described to him.

Regarding tuning: Sometimes p/p players get confused by the tuning. To make it less confusing let me just say there are three procedures: Open tuning at the key head, endplate tuning, and undercarriage tuning. Note which strings have pitch changes (both raises and lowers). Then check which strings have more than one raise or more than one lower. This is important because only the single greatest raise or lower per string will be tuned using the second or “endplate” tuning procedure. All other, lesser raises and lowers are tuned by the third or “undercarriage” tuning. You might want to keep a tuning chart in your pak-a-seat that indicates which adjustments are at the endplate and at the undercarriage. It'll come in handy for "bandstand" tuning adjustments.

NOTE: Most of the time, with a properly adjusted push/pull, tuning at the key head is all you’ll need to do. More infrequently, you may have to tune the changer using the other two procedures.

1) The First Procedure: If you only need to tune the strings (most of the time), the guitar is tuned just like all others; at the tuning keys.

2) The Second Procedure: Tuning the changer, or strings and changer with the greatest pitch change, the procedure is as follows: First, tune all of the strings to open pitch at the tuning keys (this will give you the starting point by which you’ll tune the changer). The second step will be to tune your changer starting with all your greatest raises (I start with pedals “A”, “B”, “C”, etc.). To do this, you’ll activate the pedal (or knee lever) for the specific change you wish to tune. **Hint: When I tune pedal “A” I always depress pedal “B”, too. The reason is, a lot of the time you’ll be using both pedals simultaneously, and that will create more cabinet drop than just one pedal (cabinet drop is a form of mechanical pitch drop caused by the depressing of pedals). So, I tune pedal “A” and pedal “B” with both pedals depressed, and pedal “C” with both pedals “B” and “C” depressed.** Now, to tune the greatest raises; on the changer endplate there are two rows of holes. Behind those holes are cap screws. These are for tuning the changer. The bottom row (closest to the floor) are for raises, and the top row are for lowers. OK, to tune a raise, depress the pedal to be tuned (pedals “A” and “B” for pedal “A”...); then tune the raise at the tuning key (Don’t worry about the fact that you just tuned that string to open pitch. This where most folks get confused). After you’ve achieved the correct RAISE pitch at the tuning key, release the pedal(s) and find the bottom hole that lines up with the string you’ve just tuned for a raise. Using the correct size allen key, turn the cap screw to raise or lower the pitch to the correct OPEN pitch. (Turning counter-clockwise will lower pitch). Re check both raise and open pitches to ensure they’re accurate. If not, repeat the procedure until they are correct, then move on to the next change. Do this until all the greatest raised pitches are correct, including knee levers. Next, select a string with greatest pitch lower. A good first choice on your guitar is the knee lever which lowers string four E to Eb. **Hint: When I tune this knee lever I always depress pedal “B”, too since they are frequently used together** The first thing when tuning a low is to check and tune the OPEN pitch at the tuning key. Then depress the pedal and or knee lever, locate the TOP row hole on the endplate which corresponds to the string just tuned. Using the allen key, turn the cap screw until the correct LOWER pitch is achieved (Once again, turning counter-clockwise will lower pitch). Re check both lower and open pitches to ensure they’re accurate. If not, repeat the procedure until they are correct, then move on to the next change. Do this until all the greatest lower pitches are correct.

3) The Third Procedure: Tuning the changer, or strings and changer with the lesser pitch changes. This will require you to locate a “tuning nut” on the undercarriage. There will be one for each lesser pitch change per string. The most common one is on pedal “C”, for string five. This one isn’t a lesser pitch than pedal “A”, string five, but it is subordinate. So, it uses the undercarriage tuning nut. Look at the undercarriage and find the bell crank which raises string five on pedal “C”. You’ll notice a collar on the pull rod which has a small spring and hex nut. This is the “tuning nut”. Now, the procedure is as follows: Check to make sure all the open strings are tuned correctly at the tuning keys. Then depress the pedal or knee lever with the lesser raise/lower to be tuned. Let’s do the “C” pedal. **Hint: When I tune this pedal I always depress pedal “B”, too since they are frequently used together** With the pedal(s) depressed reach under the guitar an feel for the “tuning nut”. This takes practice. Sometimes I’ll look first, put my hand on the tuning nut then proceed. Anyway, once you’ve located the correct tuning nut, with the pedal(s) depressed, turn the tuning nut until the correct pitch is achieved. (There is no “rule-of-thumb” regarding which way to turn the nut to raise or lower pitch. It depends on how it is mounted in relation to the bell crank). Once the pitch is correct, you’re good to go, so to speak.

I hope this helps more than confuses, amigo. Smile

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

Despite Glenn's excellent (although intimidating Smile

) tuning description, the good news is that a properly maintained P/P IMO is one of the most stable tuning guitars around. The one I owned was an absolute rock.

Hey Glenn, give me a shout.
BT
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John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

Glenn's last post assumes there will be a tuning nut on that particular pull. On my guitar, there isn't one installed on my C pedal and I have to monkey with the travel on the C pedal crank to give it more or less travel to be in tune. I, of course, use the 1st pedal raise on the B string as the predominant raise tuning from the endplate. I guess it would help to stick a fine tuner on that pull but it tends to stay in tune nearly all of the time.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

In normal situations, the adjustable tuning swivel (with the rod-through machine screw) is only used in situations where the secondary note is different from the predominant note (e.g. string 4 on E9, E-F# and E-F, or string 4 on C6, A-B and A-Bb). When brought to the same pitch (e.g. string 5 on E9 or string 4 on C6) raise rod collar placement, with or without shock spring, is usually sufficient.

However, I've long held the opinion that ANY string that is raised twice, regardless if the notes are the same or different, should have a tunable swivel on the secondary bellcrank. Just makes things a li'l bit easier for everyone.
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Walter Bowden · From: Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

The tuning swivel, which I take to be the only hollow hex screw w/rod running through it, on my Emmons is on the 4th (E) string. This string is affected by pedal C and LKL and LKR. A little background is in order I think. I am a lapsed player returning from almost 15 years of not having a steel as I am primarily a guitarist but, I had an Emmons S10 then just like the one I acquired last week and am itching to begin playing again.
I do remember getting my first steel out of whack adjusting things w/o really knowing what I was doing and having to take it back to Don Lashley to re-setup. He showed me the "field" adjustments that most players can do themselves though, but that was a long time ago. I don't want to go through that again because I don't know who to take it to now if I did screw it up.
It is pretty much together and playing well. I do feel some minor adjusts should be in my capability and I am VERY grateful to all the good advice from you guys & gals. I feel like if y'all can just hold my hand a little until I'm not afraid any more I'll be OK.
Can anyone tell me things NOT to try at first and other push pull warnings? Also, the C pedal when pressed, goes down a little too far towards the floor before hitting bottom for my liking. Will adjusting the pedal rod and hex lock nut at the pedal end affect things in a bad way or can the adjustment be accomplished adjusting the hex screw at the end of the crossbar where the pedal rod fits in up top? I know I am asking a lot of questions but I don't know where else to go for help. Lunch is on me if you get to Wilmington, NC and many thanks for your advice and suggestions.
Walter
PS Can anyone direct me to an illustrated page w/push pull parts explained/described. I realize communications will be best if I know what things are called.
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

Walter, that will work for raising the overall pedal height and therefore it's engaged resting spot. I'm sorry I don't have more definitive pictures and labels on my site, maybe it would clear up some titling probs for people who are new to the PP and don't speak the language yet!

Walter Bowden · From: Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

Hi John,
Thanks for the reply. Are you referring to the rod adjustment at the pedal end or where it fits on the crossbar adjust screw?
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical

richard burton · From: Britain

Walter,
Don't adjust the allen bolt on the C pedal cross-rod until you have tried shortening the length of the pedal rod (by screwing in the hexagon barrel that connects to the pedal a couple of turns).

You only need to adjust the aforementioned allen bolt if the whole C linkage needs more travel, which is unlikely unless the steel is a complete basket case.

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