Removing a stained finish

David Kellogg · From: Tualatin, OR

I'm considering removing a stained wood body and getting it to a natural color. Is sanding the only way to do this once the clear has been removed?

Pat Comeau · From: New Brunswick, Canada

David,

It all depends if it has a sealer before the lacquer...if this is the case then you don't need much sanding but if the stain was use directly on the wood then you'll need to use some lacquer remover and lacquer thinner to get rid of the lacquer then after you have to sand the wood to get the stain off, if it's oil stain you can try to thin it out with lacquer thinner first and then sanding. Smile

, good lacquer thinner is hard to find, i get mine from my brother in 5 gallons can and it cleans anything and it's real strong stuff not like the ones you buy a local hardware store.
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I would think the type of stain used would matter a lot. If it's a penetrating stain, you may have to bleach it out.

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

If it's maple, the stain is not deep at all. When I started to refinish my S 12, it was not a problem, very light sanding got it off after the top finish was removed. If it has a penetrating stain as mentioned by John it may be more of a problem.
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James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

I wouldn't recommend sanding to remove stain or old finish at all--you can never sand evenly enough, and in an attempt to sand enough stain out, you will likely blow through and destroy your inlay.

After you have removed the old laquer completely with a laquer stripper, bleach out the stain with 50/50 bleach and water, and you can pull the stain out as slow as you want with repeated applications and stop where it looks good to you. That's my opinion, anyways.

David Kellogg · From: Tualatin, OR

Yes it is maple and it doesn't have an inlay. It's a Williams I have that is orange, yuck. The end plates are black oxide so I'm going to polish them and put the guitar in a natural finish. Should be real "purdy" after that. Thanks much for the tips.

Billy Knowles · From: Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa

clorox in the sun light

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

No, no, no,nononono!!!!

Do NOT use chlorine bleach -period. It destroys the lingens (the fibers that give wood structural integrity) and will wreck your guitar, leave you with a fuzzy, non-sandable, rough finish and swell the wood grain at the same time (the combination of those factors are a huge negative...no refinisher in his right mind uses chlorine bleach on anything except spot-bleaching of aniline dye for touch-up (of something like an old sunburst finish.

Oxalic acid is one good wood bleach; the only other is loosely called "peroxide" - but is NOT (!!!!) the peroxide you buy in a store. It's a two-component product made of sodium peroxide (lye) in one component and a hydrogen peroxide solution in the other - they cause a chemical reaction that bleaches the wood.

But the worst thing is these one-line recommendations from people who know zero about the subject.

ALL of these are extremely dangerous - you can destroy an eye, permanently damage your lungs, scar yourself...if you have not done wood bleaching in the past you should dismantle the instrument and take the wood components to a furniture refinisher for the work and have the whole thing done right. If you do it yourself, you need ventilation, a $30 pair of industrial-grade goggles, a $40 NIOSH-approved respirator with spare cartridges ($15-20 a set, good for about 8 hours a set), mask, hood, and two layers of long-sleeve clothing (plus, of course, chemical gloves) - and professional training.

This isn't "weekend workshop" stuff. It's very dangerous and best left to a pro. In fact, most paint stores do not even sell wood bleach any longer due to lawsuits.

Please do some research. It scares me when someone posts "Clorox and sunlight", which is dangerous and downright stupid.

Please - don't take chances.

Jim
(former safety consultant and current safety director/VP of a coatings contracting firm)
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Jim is right. When I was referring to "bleach"," I meant the product from a woodworker's supply, meant for that specific use. I should have said that it's not household chlorine bleach. Chlorine bleach/Sodium Hypochlorite will definitely destroy fibrous material. I wrecked a jacket yesterday while transferring SHCL into a chemical pump tank. It first turns the material white, but the first time you wash it, the fibers dissolve!
When refinishing, I always try to use products that are not water-based, as water will raise the grain, and force you to sand the surface. On antiques, one does not want to remove the "patina." I use non water-based strippers, and remove the stripper residue with mineral spirits. On new items, such as gun stocks, 6-string guitar bodies, etc., the final sanding is done after lightly wetting or steaming the surface. This process will raise the grain slightly. but more importantly, it will raise little fibers that have been knocked down, but not cut off, by your earlier sanding. You "cut" these fiber ends off with your final fine sanding, then begin the finishing process.
But again, JIM IS CORRECT! The product used for bleaching wood IS NOT chlorine bleach! Go to a woodworker's supply and get the correct product. I really should have stated that in my short post. I should not have assumed that everyone would know the difference.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Jim has "another way", and I'm sure it works well. However, my information came from an antique refinisher, of expensive valuable antiques, the best in our area. None of the things Jim described happen to us, but it's about HOW you apply 50/50 bleach & water solution. You can't allow the solution to lay, but rather apply and wash off, re-apply, wash off, until you pull enough stain out. Common sense says do it outside, and sunlight is definately your friend in the bleaching proccess. Our antique refinisher has been doing this over 25 years now, and it's how he makes his living, and his living is made purely by reputation and positive results. If he ever ruined even one valuable piece, he would be out of buisness.

The proof is in the results.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

James, I have been restoring furniture since the late 60's. I never even tried bleach/Sodium Hypochlorite. I just always used oxalic acid. And, being as the furniture was generally from between 1800 and 1850, maintaining the patina was very important. I seldom used bleaching agents. Only in the case of a really ugly mark on a piece. And I tried to avoid anything with water in it, or that required a water rinse, or neutralization, as water creates a whole new set of problems for an antique restorer. But, sometimes you just couldn't avoid H2O!
But in my reading this morning I found this:
"Chlorine Bleach can be used to remove dye stain from wood in much the same way that it removes color from clothing. Household bleaches such as Chlorox can be used but they tend to be weak and require multiple treatments. The shock treatments used for swimming pools contain a higher concentration of chlorine bleach and can be used for a more-aggressive bleaching treatment. Chlorine bleaches can also be used to remove some food stains such as grape juice.

Oxalic Acid is an excellent choice for removing iron stains and black water rings from old furniture. It is sold in a dry crystal form and is available at most hardware stores. You will often see oxalic acid labeled as "Wood Bleach" so check the label to make sure you are getting the right product. It can also be used to remove some inks and pigmented stains. Oxalic acid is also often found in deck cleaners because it works well with old weathered wood.

Neutralizing Bleached after Use
After the bleaches have completed their jobs they should be neutralized with water and then followed up with a water/baking soda mix. Two-part bleaches can be neutralized with a 1-part vinegar to 2-parts water bath.

This article is presented as a general guide to bleaches commonly available to woodworkers. Before using bleach, you should read and follow the manufacturers directions closely. Always test the results on a scrap piece of wood or a part that is out of view in the case of furniture restoration."

I try to learn something every day! Bleach will work! SHCL would be better though. Quicker acting, fewer applications. Less H2O!

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Yes John and Jim, those are words of wisdom. There are several ways that bring a person to the end results desired. There is much to learn in this thread. Cool

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I'm the chief operator of a public utility. Public water supply. Small company. We use Sodium Hypochlorie to disinfect the water. I deal with it every day. Safety precautions are advised. I always wear a face shield rubber gloves and apron. But if you get any on a shirtsleeve, or a drop on your shoes? They're ruined. You can't save them even if you rinse right away. So anyone using it should be careful!
I would think you could buy it by the quart or gallon at any pool supply store, as SHCL is used as the "shock Treatment" in swimming pools.

Brian Herder · From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA

David, just as a point of reference, and to compare with James' natural refinished Bud which got the bleach treatment, mine did not... James' Bud looks to have been walnut also. Anyway, when I got my "perfect condition" Sho~Bud off eBay 10 years ago, the whole thing had been brushed with shellac. Before realizing I could pretty much peal that off with duct tape, I decided refinish it. I started on the top deck with stripper, then some light sanding. Anyway, I soon discovered that the shellac came off easy, so I just made it a two tone since I had started on the top deck, and I like two tone and the original decals. The brown is still the original finish, duct tape to remove the shellac and some wet sanding to get it back to speed. The natural still shows the stain that was down in the figured part of the grain.. I guess bleach would take care of that, I was curious at the time, but since it highlighted the grain in the same tone as the original walnut, I just sanded it some after the paint stripper, and shot the lacquer on it the way it was.. so it's now half original finish, and half refinished. (BTW, I have replaced the E-66s that came on it)

Billy Knowles · From: Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa

I have used Chlorox many time on guitar with successful results.
What is studid is calling someone stupid.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

oops.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Jim, you need to use some tact here. Billy Knowles is a long time member and meant well. He restores guitars. I also have used Clorox all though I would take it to a furniture refinisher in the future for proper stripping.

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