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Topic: Joaquin Murphey "Moon Over Texas" (probably not hi |
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 9:10 am |
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I've uploaded a track featuring Joaquin Murphey with Doug McGinnis on Doug's Mule Kick LP. This one is called "Moon Over Texas". (I removed the link) My guess is that this is from the late 60s. Nothing earth-shattering, but even after all those years, you can still pick Joaquin's playing out in just 3 or 4 notes.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links
Last edited by Mike Neer on 12 Mar 2009 7:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 2:29 pm A great cut...............
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Mike..........not differing with you but.........
That has to be one of the roughest 'solo's' accredited to Joaquin that I've ever heard. Are you sure, as I'm confident that you are, that's actually Mr. Murphy?
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 2:33 pm
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The single note stuff at the beginning of the solo is rough, but I think the chordal stuff is typical JM. I think this stuff was recorded rather informally...with Joaquin being a little past his prime.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Jon Gottesman
From:
New York, NY
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 3:15 pm
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| You can definitely tell it's Joaquin - where can one get a copy of this recording |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 5:25 pm
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There are two or three cuts on Doug's LP that might remind you of Joaquin--but Doug himself told me it was Al Vernon. Vernon obviously dug Murphey.
Doug knew Joaquin quite well and I think may have spoken at his funeral.
The McGinnis LP is very rare, from the 1960s. Has a great cover shot of Doug and Jimmy Bryant on the stage of the Mulekick Club--which Doug owned and which later became the Palomino. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 7:30 pm
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Both Vernon and Joaquin are credited. After listening to all the cuts, I'd have to stick with guns and say it's JM, not knowing Vernon's style. There are really only 2 cuts that sound remotely like JM. I've been wrong before, though.
I've heard a tape of Johnny Bonvillian and he could JM pretty well.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 7:51 pm
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Mike:
Where are the musicians credited???
I have the LP in front of me and see no sidemen listed at all.
Incidentally, I had forgotten that the cover shot actually shows Doug, Jimmy Bryant, and the great and nearly forgotten steel player, Curly Cochran.
The picture looks to be taken circa 1950, long before the LP was recorded, and shows the Mulekick stage backdrop. I'm not sure when it disappeared and became the Palomino. There is an ancient 78 rpm jukebox in the background.
Yeah, Bonvillian apparently was something. Tom Morrell used to rave about hearing him on the radio when Tom was just getting interested in steel. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 8:25 pm
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I have the "Doug McGinnis" cassette album 202 in front of me. The musicians credited are Joaquin, Noel Boggs, A.L. Vernon, Joe McGinnis, Junior Nichols, Jimmy Bryant, Irv Mayhew, Don & Doug McG, Harold Hensley, J.D. Maness. There are several cuts which are the same as the Mule Kick LP, Moon Over Texas being one of them.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 8:46 pm
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Mike:
I had forgotten about that cassette. Doug put it out circa 1990-1992, long after the Mule Kick LP was extinct. In fact, I think I assembled the recordings for him and sent him a master tape, which he then sent off to his duplicator to make up a few hundred (?) and the J-card. I had a single or two that did not appear on the LP.
I did a similar thing for him on both of his Joaquin Murphey and Billy Hughes releases--used my own recordings to make a master cassette, which he then duplicated and sold under the Mulekick label. One for Billy and one for Joaquin.
If you have heard the Joaquin tape, you will know what a mess it is. Doug fouled up the track listing, made up titles, etc. I was glad my name didn't appear on the J-card. He was into his 70s at the time, nearly deaf, and prone to mistakes.
When I first got the Mulekick LP and heard Moon Over Texas (10 years before the cassette appeared and some time before I met Doug), I thought it was Joaquin.
I sent a copy of the song to Morrell and he thought there were similarities, but doubted it was Joaquin.
I then met Doug and to the best of my recall he said Vernon, not Murphey.
It could be Murphey--the only issue I have is that Doug was error-prone in his productions and had a fading memory at that time in his life. I doubt if he is still alive--he would be at least 80 by now. I have not talked with him since probably 1997.
Lee Jeffriess and I have corresponded about this. I am not sure what he ultimately believes.
I may have a copy of that cassette buried somewhere. What on that cassette is obviously Boggs to you?? Offhand, I can't recall any of Doug's sides having Boggs. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 9:02 pm
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I'm sitting here with 6 of those cassettes in front of me, including the Billy Hughes tape, 2 Joaquin tapes and one called "Back Stage Jamming With Pals" which supposedly has Vance Terry, Curley Cochran and Joaquin on it. (OK, I figured out which is the Vance Terry cut--"I'll Be On My Way"). The Joaquin track is Charmaine and it sounds like a poor transcription of the Spade Cooley side from the Dance-O-Rama EP.
I believe that Noel Boggs is playing on "Just In Time To Be Too Late". Again, not knowing how Al Vernon plays I really can't say for certain.
Mitch, thanks for your input.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 9:36 pm
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Mike:
Well, the plot thickens.
As I said, I have not been in touch with Doug since about 1997.
The last I knew he had put out only 1 Joaquin cassette. So, I know nothing about the other Joaquin cassette and I know nothing about "Backstage Jamming With Friends". Those presumably were released after I lost contact with Doug.
I used to send him cassettes I made up, purely as a favor--these would have included songs by Curly Cochran, Vance, and many other So Cal types from the old days. He loved both Murphey and Cochran, so I may well have put Charmaine in there. The poor reproduction you hear on his releases is due to the duplication process and low quality tapes. He just wasn't much concerned with quality, despite the fact that I used high quality tape, originals, and tape decks on my end. He had good intentions, but the finished product was somewhat embarrassing.
I am wondering if Doug has since used those tapes I did as a favor to make up "Backstage Jamming With Friends"?? Doug did not have a record collection or access to masters as far as I know. We would BS on the phone a couple of times per year and I would try to send him some cassettes he would dig, as well as help him on the formal Mule Kick releases.
What in the world is on the second Joaquin cassette?? The only one I am familar with has some obviously fake Hawaiian titles made up for some songs. This was because I had lost my track listing for the Joaquin "Hawaii Forever" cassette, but nonetheless sent it to Doug. He had no titles, so made some up out of thin air. As I recall, there are other errors on that tape.
Vance Terry "I'll Be On My Way" doesn't ring a bell either. No vocalist? Made up title? That isn't actually "Pack My Bags", vocal by Doug is it?
I don't have a turnable setup currently, so I can't play the LP to offer an opinion on that Boggs track.
I do have 4 sides by Doug that don't appear on the LP: Mississippi Red/I Care No More on BJB 303. I got this from Doug I think, and it has Bryant on guitar. Can't recall if there is any steel. The other is Bagdad 1980 "Behind The Iron Curtain Of Your Heart/Wrong Number". I think these last 2 titles are on the Doug cassette you have?
JD Maness is credited on a Don McGinnis 45 I have on Mule Kick.
Last point: the Joaquin cassette with the made up Hawaiian titles had some tracks that Doug got from someone other than me. My copy is buried deep in storage, but I recall being very confused by a few of the tracks--I couldn't trace them and wasn't even positive it was Murphey at all. They were instrumentals as I recall. Can you look at that J-card and ID the tracks I mean and give them a listen. Titles? Murphey or not?
That's about all I can offer, other than having as many ears as possible listen to Doug's releases to try to ID the players. (Lee Jeffriess, Jussi, Ray Montee, Herb Steiner, etc) |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 9:57 pm
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| Mitch Drumm wrote: |
I used to send him cassettes I made up, purely as a favor--these would have included songs by Curly Cochran, Vance, and many other So Cal types from the old days. |
There is a track on Back Stage that has 2 steels--1 of which I believe is Vance and the other may be Curly. Vance is playing the chords while the other blows, not very well, I might add.
| Mitch Drumm wrote: |
I am wondering if Doug has since used those tapes I did as a favor to make up "Backstage Jamming With Friends"?? Doug did not have a record collection or access to masters as far as I know. We would BS on the phone a couple of times per year and I would try to send him some cassettes he would dig, as well as help him on the formal Mule Kick releases. |
I'd bet he did that.
| Mitch Drumm wrote: |
What in the world is on the second Joaquin cassette?? The only one I am familar with has some obviously fake Hawaiian titles made up for some songs. This was because I had lost my track listing for the Joaquin "Hawaii Forever" cassette, but nonetheless sent it to Doug. He had no titles, so made some up out of thin air. As I recall, there are other errors on that tape.
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Mitch, one tape is simply called "Joaquin Murphey", cassette album 203. It has many of the same titles as "Joaquin Goes Hawaiian", except it's 10 tracks vs. 13 and includes Cowbell Polka and Sweet Georgia Brown.
| Mitch Drumm wrote: |
Vance Terry "I'll Be On My Way" doesn't ring a bell either. No vocalist? Made up title? That isn't actually "Pack My Bags", vocal by Doug is it? |
Yes, that's the same cut, mislabeled on this tape. I'd bet that was Vance.
| Mitch Drumm wrote: |
I don't have a turnable setup currently, so I can't play the LP to offer an opinion on that Boggs track. I do have 2 sides by Doug that don't appear on the LP: Mississippi Red/I Care No More on BJB 303. I got this from Doug I think, and it has Bryant on guitar. Can't recall if there is any steel.
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I have a tape of all Jimmy Bryant stuff called "In Memory of My Lifelong Buddy Jimmy Bryant". Being the JB fanatic that I am, some of these tracks are new to me, some not. One is Tico Tico.
| Mitch Drumm wrote: |
Last point: the Joaquin cassette with the made up Hawaiian titles had some tracks that Doug got from someone other than me. My copy is buried deep in storage, but I recall being very confused by a few of the tracks--I couldn't trace them and wasn't even positive it was Murphey at all. They were instrumentals as I recall. Can you look at that J-card and ID the tracks I mean and give them a listen. Titles? Murphey or not?
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I'll listen and see what I can do.
edit to add: Mitch, there is one tune that oddly does and doesn't sound like Joaquin. It's called Joaquin's Hula and it sounds like a cross between JM and Speedy, maybe even played on a Fender steel. Very strange.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 10:24 pm
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| Quote: |
| There is a track on Back Stage that has 2 steels--1 of which I believe is Vance and the other may be Curly. Vance is playing the chords while the other blows, not very well, I might add. |
What is the alleged title and artist?
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Mitch, one tape is simply called "Joaquin Murphey", cassette album 203. It has many of the same titles as "Joaquin Goes Hawaiian", except it's 10 tracks vs. 13 and includes Cowbell Polka and Sweet Georgia Brown.
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The cassette I contributed to had some tracks from Joaquin's "Hawaii Forever" cassette and some other stuff. Some of the other stuff may not have been Murphey at all. I lacked titles for the Hawaiian material, so Doug just made up titles.
I would like details on those peculiar titles and a track listing of the other Joaquin cassette. It may have some bogus items on it too?
Regarding Pack My Bags aka I'll Be On My Way. This track is on the original Mulekick LP, but if I understand correctly, Vance is NOT included as a sideman on your cassette reissue of this track? I wouldn't expect Vance to be recording in Los Angeles in the 1960s, but anything is possible. I'm sure Doug never claimed it was Vance in any conversation with me, but ??
I think Bryant's Tico Tico is from a Bryant Imperial LP? I don't have the Bryant cassette you refer to. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 10:42 pm
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| Mitch Drumm wrote: |
Regarding Pack My Bags aka I'll Be On My Way. This track is on the original Mulekick LP, but if I understand correctly, Vance is NOT included as a sideman on your cassette reissue of this track? I wouldn't expect Vance to be recording in Los Angeles in the 1960s, but anything is possible. I'm sure Doug never claimed it was Vance in any conversation with me, but ??
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On third listen, I think that may be Noel Boggs on Pack My Bags. Certainly sounds like his vibrato.
Anyone want to take a shot at it? Pack My Bags
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mitch Drumm
From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
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Posted 3 Mar 2009 11:21 pm
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Mike:
Doug recorded 3 tracks that swing a bit that I know of. I have all 3 on MP3, but have no turntable set up to listen to others. Here are my tin-eared guesses after a fresh listen.
Moon Over Texas: Al Vernon or Murphey; certainly someone in the Murphey mode or style. No chance for Boggs. Murphey is more likely on this track than on the other two, but could as easily be Vernon.
Pack My Bags: Vernon or Murphey. There are certainly a few licks that are what you would think Murphey would have sounded like in 1965, but what else do we have from Murphey in that decade to compare to?? Most of the steel doesn't remind of Murphey, but there are those few stylistic licks that definitely do. There is none of that red hot single string stuff that would give it away to Joaquin. And I don't hear anything even remotely Hawaiian as I often do with Joaquin.
Party Line (as titled on Mulekick LP and probably the same track as Wrong Number on Bagdad 45 rpm): the steel sounds relatively conventional to me--standard SoCal, so could be Maness.
I don't think Vance or Noel are on any of these 3.
The only reason I even suspect Al Vernon is because Doug mentioned him to me as being on the LP. I have no independent evidence that he sounded anything like Murphey and have never heard anything else he did.
Billy Tonnesen has said on this forum that Vernon was a Joaquin aficionado, so we should try to get him on this thread and get him to listen.
Here are the tracks on the original 1972 Joaquin cassette of Hawaii Forever. I am guessing NONE of these match up to any of your Mulekick cassette titles--Doug didn't have them, at least not from me. So he comes up with stuff like Pineapple this or Hula that.
1. Hoo Manawa Nui
2. Hawaii Manawa Pu'a
3. Mai Kai Omole, Inu Kakou
4. Me Ka Mahalo
5. Ka'u
6. Pupule Ka Moa
7. Kihiko
8. Aole Pilikia
9. Hawaii Hana Hou
10. Pikaki
11. Hoo Mali Mali
12. Lapu'wale
13. Welakahao |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 3:17 am
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Mike, can't comment on Al Vernon 'cause I've never heard him but that track doesn't sound like Murph or Boggs to me. It's a bit too inelegant for Boggs and not characteristic of his style - at least that's ho I hear it.
Last edited by Andy Volk on 4 Mar 2009 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 5:07 am
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Great discussion!
I'd like to hear some of the McGinnis tapes mentioned. I have Mule Kick 210, and a tape Lucky Oceans gave me back in the 1970s that says "Joaquin at Bud Isaacs' house," that seems to be early renditions of some of the tunes that became Scotty's Midland album of Murph.
I gave "Pack My Bags" a close listen. It's for sure not Noel, and I don't think it's Murph, even in his "down years."
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 5:55 am
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| About "Pack My Bags", I'm with Herb, don't believe it's neither Murph or Boggs. Can't say about Al Vernon, I'm not familiar with his playing. Cool song though, I really dug the guitar solo! |
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 6:25 am
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I have no idea who the steel player was, but I GUA-RAN-TEE is was NOT Joaquin Murphey.
_________________
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David Cook
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 7:32 am
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| Anyway, thanks to Mike for posting all of JM!!! |
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Jon Nygren
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 9:51 am
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| Jussi Huhtakangas wrote: |
| Cool song though, I really dug the guitar solo! |
Agreed. I like the whole song actually, guess i'm the only one who digs the steel playing too. It's not Murph but I like it. |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 1:36 pm
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Oh no, I dug the steel too, just don't believe it was Murph  |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 2:16 pm
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So the consensus is that Moon Over Texas is not Murph?
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Kevin Brown
From:
England
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 2:20 pm
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| Great thread Mike, what a sound on pack my bags, its so ANALOGUE it hurts, a refreshing change in this digital age, no idea about the players but enjoyed the track, you should have a radio show Mike, i'd be no 1 listener ! |
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Lee Jeffriess
From:
Vallejo California
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Posted 4 Mar 2009 11:19 pm
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Mike, Im pretty sure that stuff is Vernon?.
Its really hard to say for sure, without some kind of definite reference source.
The only two guys I know of that witnessed Vernon's playing in the 50's(non pedal) are Billy Tonnenson, and Al Gordan(last steel guitarist with the Caravan).
Infact Al and I went on youtube the other day, I wanted to see if he could recognize a certain player.
I wonder if any of you guys remember a youtube clip that was posted here a few months back.
It was of the Eddie Cletro band on the Doyle ODell show.
The band is kicking Butt on back home in Indiana.
I wanted Al to see it, He seemed to think the player resembled Vernon, and was playing a blonde Custom as Al had remembered him doing so on TV.
I do however, also remember Billy saying at the time, he didn't recognize the player.
It would be interesting to see if he watched it again if it jogged his memory.
The trouble with the McGinnis Liner notes is there untrustworthy, I don't hear any JM or NB on any of the tunes.
I believe there are maybe three different guys, and the Jazzy sounding guy could be Vernon, and it sounds like he is playing a Wright Custom/Sierra, and on Moon over Texas, he is obviously wearing green socks.
Lee |
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