| Author |
Topic: Why are volume and tone knobs not standard on pedal steel? |
Chris Johnson
From:
USA
|
Posted 11 Jan 2009 7:33 pm |
|
It a question that I've been wondering for a while now. Standard guitarist seem to just die if a guitar doesn't at least have one volume and one tone knob. I personally dont care for the default volume-10, Tone-10 sound. I know that I could just play around with the bass & shift on the amp to get the same results but it feels like too much work for simple tonal variation. It seems that the old MSA's got the idea right with the bypass switch function.
Second part of the post......
Do any modern guitars come with the Volume/Tone standard or optional? |
|
|
 |
Ben Strano
From:
Nashville
|
Posted 11 Jan 2009 8:04 pm
|
|
I did the opposite. No tone, no volume on a 6 string.
Honestly I took a Mexican Tele that I got for a hundred bucks, and sounded passable and just gutted it.
Now it sounds unreal. There is something to getting rid of some cheap caps, and pots. Sure it is a one trick pony... but it's a really good trick.
And yes... the pickup lead was long enough to wire directly to the jack. |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 11 Jan 2009 8:14 pm
|
|
Well, the theory is that tone and volume controls on the guitar take something away from the tone that comes off the PU.
Also, most PSG players use a volume pedal. Emmons PSG's have always had a tone control and tone control bypass switch.
I once heard a player in Atlanta say, "You get a lot more power when the tone control is bypassed". This is ludicrous and ill-advised. You do get a very slight amount of "high" increase at the very high end. Nothing more. As for power there is no loss of power in either case.
To "solve" the perceived loss thru tone and volume controls, some players use a "match box". They come in various shapes and sizes and cost.
| Quote: |
Second part of the post......
Do any modern guitars come with the Volume/Tone standard or optional? |
Check out the following picture.
I ordered this guitar with a volume and tone control on it as an option. You can see them clearly in the picture. I like them there. I always have since I played lapsteel. I have NO problem with a slight tonal loss, since any degradation is easily compensated for at the amp.
Their presence is just too nice (for me at least) not to have them. Others will disagree.
Note: I am going to install a "match-box" circuit board under the tone and volume control circuitry to have the "best" of both worlds. With a bypass switch, to see just how much they affect the tone. I do not forsee much. As stated above, it would not matter to me if there was some.
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
|
Posted 11 Jan 2009 8:44 pm
|
|
| Nice ride, Carl! That's a great looking guitar. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 11 Jan 2009 9:22 pm Why are volume and tone knobs not standard on pedal steel?
|
|
My opinion: For no good reason!
There have been multiple threads about this before, and there seems to be a substantial body of opinion that feels A) Nobody would use these controls, and B) The trouble and/or expense of including them would be a problem for the manufacturers, presumably by driving up their price point?
As to A), Well, I use them. While I feel the use of a volume pedal makes an onboard volume control unnecessary for me, my Sho-Bud Super Pro came with a tone control with a bypass switch, and I use them a lot! I have other steels without, and I wish they had the same.
And as to B), I'm not convinced that the parts and labor required to include onboard controls would necessitate an increase in manufacturers' asking price for a PSG substantial enough to scare off customers ready to spend $3,000 to $5,000.
Particularly when there's a bypass switch, any player who's not inclined to use onboard controls can go ahead and operate as if they weren't there. And if it should happen they sometime want to use them, there they are. What's not to like? |
|
|
|
Doc Rickles
From:
Tuscaloosa, Alabama, USA
|
Posted 11 Jan 2009 9:29 pm Tone controls
|
|
Hi Brother Carl,
Thats a beautiful guitar my brother. Do you miss the pad. And does the Black guitar sound better than the others.
I like the tone controls on the guitar and
as you said you can use a matchbox or a freeloader if needed.
Love to visit again sometime.
Be Blessed
IN Him
Doc Rickles
_________________
GFI Red and Black SD 10 3/4 Keyless, Fender Jazzmaster Head, Special Jensen 12" Speaker Cab, New Hilton Pedal, Epiphone ES 295,60th Aniv 52 Custom Shop Tele,Tacoma Chief CKK9C Koa Wood
Wonderful Wife who loves all this stuff.
"Steel Away and Pray Everyday." |
|
|
|
Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
|
Posted 11 Jan 2009 10:39 pm
|
|
For about fifteen years have used the Goodrich 6 A Matchbox,would sure hate to be without it. DYKBC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 12 Jan 2009 7:59 am
|
|
| Quote: |
Hi Brother Carl,
Thats a beautiful guitar my brother. Do you miss the pad. And does the Black guitar sound better than the others. |
Hi Doc. Thanks to you (AND Jesus), for allowing me to buy it, by purchasing my older one.
I DO miss the "pad". Due to the narrow space, I am not sure a pad would look right. Now, as to the "black color"...................................
Now don't you KNOW that "Blacccccck is bee-U-tee-ful"?
Oops, I forgot! You asked about the sound dintcha?........
Hmmmmm. Do I do it, or do I not! That is the question. 
"If I do it, I get a Fvippin".
Hmmmmm
I do it!
It DOES indeed unless you are  Buddy , then it abso-positively, flat-dab, betcha-tha-farm, gar-own-teed don' matter!
Now how does that sound pahdnah? Huh?
Ooooooops, I meant "whatcha thank bruthuh?"
I mean, you know, oh well! you know, I mean 
Love ya,
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 12 Jan 2009 8:25 am
|
|
Well, here's my guess at why manufacturers dropped the volume and tone controls that used to be standard on lap steels and early pedal steels.
The nearly universal use of a volume pedal made the on-guitar volume control unnecessary. Hawaiian, country and swing steelers didn't use the volume control to adjust what was hitting the amp for purposes of manipulating clean and distortion.
The use of a finger wrapped around the tone knob for a wah effect fell out of fashion. Back when everyone used a pot volume pedal without impedance matching devices such as the Matchbox, people noticed that tone control circuits adversely affected tone. Even with a bypass, there is the potential for some effect on tone, due to the extra wiring and connections. Regardless of how little, if any, effect there was, a wide-spread belief developed that caused some players to rewire the pickup directly to the jack, and to request manufacturers to do so. Manufacturers took that as a cue to save some money and stop putting tone and volume controls on pedal steels.
Guitar players rarely use a volume pedal and walk around away from their amp. So volume and tone controls on the guitar are pretty much a necessity. Steelers use a volume pedal and sit next to their amp, where they can easily tweak their tone controls. Besides, once their tone is set for the particular venue, most steelers don't change their tone much. You can watch steelers play all night long without ever touching their amp controls. Unless you are switching between genres (say brighter for country, darker for jazz), there is just not a lot of need for tone changes on steel. I had a tone control and bypass switch on an Emmons push/pull, but never once felt a need to use it on a gig. You can get quite a bit of tone variation by simply moving your picking hand closer to the bridge for brighter and further away for darker.
So, I'm not passing judgment on whether it is good or bad, just trying to explain how the present situation came about. |
|
|
|
A. J. Schobert
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio,
|
Posted 12 Jan 2009 9:04 am
|
|
| You can ask a builder to see if they can install the tone knob, I would think most would. |
|
|
|
Danny Bates
From:
Fresno, CA. USA
|
Posted 12 Jan 2009 10:44 am
|
|
Carl,
The volume and tone knobs look great... That "Shifter" is nice too. "The Ferrari of Steel Guitars"... and that's a good thing! 
You can tell your guitar was crafted by a true artisan. And it couldn't be owned by a finer person.
"Put The Pedal To The Metal"  |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 12 Jan 2009 11:11 am
|
|
| David Doggett wrote: |
| Steelers use a volume pedal and sit next to their amp, where they can easily tweak their tone controls. |
That may be true for many. If I sit close enough to my amp to reach the controls, there's no way I can hear it the way I want to. If it's standing upright on the floor, the sound goes past my legs and I get a grossly out-of-balance impression of the tone, and volume. If it's elevated on a chair or amp stand, or, worse, tilted back, it's way too "in my face", or straight into my ear. There's nothing worse to me than the on-axis, close-proximity sound of a speaker, regardless of what kind of speaker or amp or amp settings. What I want is to give the sound room to breathe, and become part of the sonic environment, rather than perceive it emanating from a fixed, two-dimensional, unnatural source.
| Quote: |
Besides, once their tone is set for the particular venue, most steelers don't change their tone much. You can watch steelers play all night long without ever touching their amp controls. Unless you are switching between genres (say brighter for country, darker for jazz), there is just not a lot of need for tone changes on steel. |
I use the tone control and bypass on my Super Pro to change between, for example, soft Lloyd Green-type tone on a Don Williams song and bright Mooney-type tone on an early Buck Owens tune (I also use the neck switch in the middle position, both necks on, which acts similarly to a coil tap to thin the sound for the more Mooney-like sound.) |
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
From:
USA
|
Posted 12 Jan 2009 12:39 pm
|
|
Thanks for the input guys.
I acknowledge that a volume control on the guitar is rather unnecessary these days but a tone control is a must for me. Certain brands of lap steels have a wonderful tone with sometimes more that three knobs.
I pretty much know that the matchbox is a solution for an external tone circuit and very slight loss of signal (which I dont mind at all) but it seems to be easier just to get one installed on the guitar like Carl said rather than hook up one more gadget. I would like to keep my simple Guitar-Volume-Amp setup. If Im playing my Carter, Il just use my Boss GE-7 in front of the volume as a tone modeler.
I agree with Brint, I sit too far away from my amp for casual adjustments and I say, just have the best of both world and include a tone control with a true bypass switch............ But it doesn't matter what I say since I am a part of the minority of steel players who dont care for the common one dimensional sound 
Beautiful guitar Carl. I would love to get one as soon as I get my bailout |
|
|
|
Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 13 Jan 2009 1:14 pm
|
|
I installed a tone and volume knob on the endplate of my carter SD-12. I find them very useful.
The tone control especially. Turning down the tone knob reduces the hum caused by a single coil pickup. |
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 13 Jan 2009 2:39 pm
|
|
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| If I sit close enough to my amp to reach the controls, there's no way I can hear it the way I want to. |
That's why I prefer an amp head. In addition to splitting up the weight, I can keep the head beside me for easy tweaking, but put the speaker anywhere I want. I prefer the speaker as far behind me as possible, in the back line. That makes it easier for me to blend my sound with the overall stage sound.
Many steelers these days play in groups that mike everything. Then they just use their amp as a personal monitor and point it at their head. Of course that leaves the mix totally up to the sound man. Even with miked amps I prefer to match my sound to the stage volume. At least the front of the audience can hear me. And the sound man has a balanced stage mix to start with. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 13 Jan 2009 3:50 pm
|
|
Most players never used them, and they're very easy to add.
As to why all manufacturers don't install them...Why should I pay for something you want? |
|
|
|
John Neff
From:
Athens, GA
|
Posted 13 Jan 2009 10:26 pm tone control
|
|
| When I play through my Deluxe Reverb with the treble turned all the way down. I'm too bright. Through my ampeg V4, or most other amps, I have more control over highs. I often find myself in compromising situations, having to deal with festival backlined amps. Count me down as pro-tone control. |
|
|
|
Frank Parish
From:
Nashville,Tn. USA
|
Posted 14 Jan 2009 6:13 am
|
|
| I prefer the tone knob since I played and still play an Emmons guitar a lot but was disappointed not to be able to get one installed on my Carter. John Bechtel made one for me that just plugs in and it has a Boo-Wah effect too! |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 14 Jan 2009 6:25 am Yeah David
|
|
David congratulations. I think out of all the post I have read about tone and such you are the only one that mentioned the impedance mismatch caused ny some devices theyfore necessating an impediance matching device. i noticed this greatly when I used a pot pedal. For the doubting thomases connect the guitat straight to the amp especially with a pot pedal and there will be a noticeale difference. I haven't tried this with a Hilton pedal
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 14 Jan 2009 8:08 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| connect the guitat straight to the amp especially with a pot pedal and there will be a noticeale difference. |
In almost all cases you are exactly correct Robert. And one of the main reasons for this is; If you connect a PU straight into an amp, you automatically go absolute FULL ON, which is rarely the case with most volume pedals, EVEN if they are wide open.
Also remember this, that loudness is OFTEN confused with tone degradation (or embellishment), because of the way the human ear was designed by Jesus.
Also, a volume pot does put a resistance in parallel with the PU, so there is a very slight reduction in the level as a result. But this resistance is MANY times greater than the impedance (AC resistance) of the PU. Thus the amount of reduction is extremely low.
So in this case, there is a loss in level which can be easily compensated for with the amp's volume control(s).
The second reason is; a pot does have an extremely low amount of "capacitance" (AC resistance to ever higher tones). So there would be a very slight reduction in the highest of the frequencies (tones). Again this is EASILY compensated for at the amp by advancing the treble control slightly.
Finally, the 3rd biggest culprit is: the missmatch of the impedance of the PU and the resistance AND impedance of the pot. But again this is very slight. And this can be completely overcome by using a "matching device"; of which there are several on the market.
The second is the amp itself. If you only knew the tricks (some dirty) that manufacturers design in amps, you would see JUST how much degradation there is.
But the MAIN culpritt is; the speaker itself. For there is NO speaker that can come close to reproducing what the PU puts out. NOT one. And due to the sujectivity of us humans, EVEN if there was, few would like the sound. 
As to paying for things that one does not want (while others want it), this is a very common scenario in many things one purchases:
1. Carrying cases that are never used.
2. Flocking on an Emmons.
3. All manner of esthetics, which play NO role in the sound.
4. Logos in various places on almost everything you buy.
5. Formica coverings.
6. Headrests in a car.
7. Alloy wheels.
8. Mute levers on Fender 800's and 2000's.
9. Tons of items not wanted by some but wanted by others in "package deals".
10. Cuffs on trousers.
And so on. Remember, you pay for every thing that a manufacturer puts on something, whether ya want it or not. Yet everything is wanted by someone, or it would not be on there.
Thanks for the compliments fellows. And Danny Bates, I am humbled. Really
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 14 Jan 2009 8:28 am Impedance
|
|
I haven't trie it in several years since there was no real way to resolve the issue. But when I did try there was a lot difference
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
|
|
|
Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
|
Posted 14 Jan 2009 8:37 am
|
|
| Most 6 string guitars have more than one pickup. On pedal steels I think they are a waste. |
|
|
|
Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 14 Jan 2009 9:23 am
|
|
| I never loved the 'hardness' of my tone with a Matchbox, so I built a plug-in passive tone control. Totally essential for my tube amps to kick the highs down a bit. |
|
|
|
