Coming to Grips With Grips - C6/A7

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Expletives and original chart deleted!
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See below for a chart that actually demonstrates the grips in the text.
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Hello everyone, while waiting for my Jerry Byrd Instructional Course to arrive, I thought I would make some productive use of my idle time by trying to figure out some grips for the most common chords, under the bar. Later on I'm sure I'll be learning some chords with no-Root or no-Fifth, etc. In the meantime I wanted to "see" the various grips graphically.

For Major and Minor chords I wanted to see all the notes in the triads. For the four-note chords I wanted to see all 4 notes in the chord.

The top line shows the 6 notes in the C7/A7 tuning with the 6th string tuned up a half tone to C# (from low to high).

The next line represents the strings of the lap steel.

As I see it, tuning the lowest string to C# gives you two inversions of a Major chord and gives you a full four-note Dominant 7th chord. And, there are a few 3-note (out of 4-note) diminished chords available. I'm sure I will learn some others in the course.

I have some questions on correct fingering. Rather than refer to PIMA, like classical guitarists use, I'll call the thumb "T", the index finger "I", and the middle finger "M". Is it generally accepted practice to play with the thumb and two fingers?

For the first major inversion, it seems logical to play the 3-5-R with the T-I-M grip. And, also the 5-R-3 can be played using the same finger combination.

How are the four and five note chords played? I can see that it's possible to strum them all with the thumb, or even to thumb the lowest note and upstrum or downstrum with the back of the nail on the index finger. Is there a "standard" way to do this?

For the Dom. 7th chord do we prefer to "strum" the 3 and 5 with the thumb, while plucking the b7 and root with the other two fingers? Do we sometimes use a thumb and 3 fingers?

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

The actual chart appears below.

This chart may be useful to other beginners, like me.

No actual chords are named. The chart is Universal.

The chart is generic. It works for EVERY chord of the listed chord types.

For instance: If you want a Dmin7 chord, find the root of the Dm7 on the 3rd string, 5th fret. The correct grip for this chord is shown.

If you want to look at an Amin7, find the root of this chord on the third string. This chord can be played either using open strings, or at the 12th fret.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

After frantically scrambling around in embarssment, I re-created the chart and converted it to a .jpg. I really hope this one does the trick.

Josh Cho · From: New York, NY (orig. Honolulu, HI)

Ray,

Happy New Year to you, my fellow steeler friend!

To answer your question about the picking hand, you are correct in that Thumb-Index-Middle are the standard fingers used with the right hand.

And your comments about strumming the 6th and Min7 chords are correct: brush through the thumb. If you don't use fingerpicks, brushing with the back of the index nail works too, like you mention.

I believe your questions really center around those broken up inversions. I'll give you my thoughts on all chords in order from top to bottom based on your chart and using your TIM notation

1)Maj = use TIM (T just strikes the lowest 2 strings, the I and M are plucking 2nd and 1st respectively)
2)Maj = use TIM, same as above, just spread the I and M fingers
3)6th = T
4)Min = this one is interesting and gives you many possibilities: a) you can choose what note's least important to you and leave it out (which is what I would do) OR b) use the ring finger which would make the fingering TIMA OR c)use TIM BUT have the M finger placed on the 1st string brush up and hit both 1st and 2nd strings
5) Min7 = T
6) 7th = TIM, the I and M fingers pluck 3rd and 1st strings, respectively, and the thumb strikes the lowest 3 strings

I believe you can consider these standard acceptable practices except for the use of the ring finger or the A from PIMA.

I don't generally use picks and have a background in classical guitar so I use the entire PIMA (or TIMA as you would call it). If you want to get real crazy like some of the jazz guitar cats, use all 5 fingers of the right hand, including the pinky - I mean after all, when it comes down to it, it's whatever gets the job done....

Who's going to stop you?? The Steel Guitar Police???? Wink

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Lap-n-Console Steel Guitar Lessons

Dean Gray · From: New South Wales, Australia

Hi Ray, good work on your charts. It's great to see someone take such a methodical approach to learning new tunings. I have been working on similar charts for my expanded C6, though mine are just messy scrawlings in a note book!

I'd like to hear how you go with Jerry Byrds course after you've spent some time with it. I am sure all of the slants, especially split slants, will open up even more possibilities for you. I am waiting on Scotty's 20 songs for C6 book, to expand the repertoire a bit, and then will be studying Jerry's course also.

Keep up the good work!
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If it’s on the ground it can’t fall down.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Josh, thank you for a through answer to my fingering questions. I completely agree with "whatever gets the job done...". I never minded breaking any music rules, but I do like to know what they are, first.

Dean, It looks like you and I will be learning C6 together. Let the adventure begin!

Josh Cho · From: New York, NY (orig. Honolulu, HI)

Ray, You got it, man, I hope the fingerings help. Plus I have a feeling you'll be delving even deeper into the beauty of the C6 tuning very shortly....my entire DVD lesson set is on its way to you my friend...

Enjoy!
_________________
Lap-n-Console Steel Guitar Lessons

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Having been on this board since about 1997, I've seen a lot of threads come and go. If you search this forum as well as its previous incarnation you'll find a wealth of info, charts, links, etc. without needing to re-invent the wheel.

Like this one ....

http://dennysguitars.homestead.com/lessonsindex1.html

"Threadzilla" ...........

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/003549.html

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Josh, I'll be standing in the rain out by the mail box every day until your package arrives!!! As, agreed, I am also sending an envelope to you today.
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Andy, I HEAR YOU! I have nothing but deep respect for you and the things you continually do for this community. But, I absolutely WILL NOT allow you or anyone else to quench the fire of my beginner's enthusiam......

I have read every word on Denny's site and I have read thousands of posts right here on this forum. A search for "grips" produces 57 results. None of them refers to either Denny or the Threadzilla 8-page thread. When I originally read those threads, it was way over my head. And, at the time, C6 was not a viable tuning for what I thought I needed. As it turns out, thanks to the responses to threads like this one from Rick Aiello, Brad, John Ely, Doug, et al.... I have learned that C6 is the BEST tuning for the things I want to do.

I, just now, revisited Threadzilla and Denny's site. I have printed out what seems like reams of valuable information. Most of it is still over my head. But, Denny's slant charts and some of the chord substitution "rules" are pure gold. Thank you very much for reminding me of those golden resources.

It may seem like I am trying to "re-invent the wheel", but I am only trying to position the wheel at a different angle(s) so that I can see it and maybe understand it a little bit more clearly. Many have found that simply writing something down makes it easier to understand. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have learned in my 6.5 decades on this earth what works for me. That is something that some folks never learn, no matter how long they live.

Finally, to support my theory about writing things out, in your own way, here is a direct quote from Denny's site:

http://dennysguitars.homestead.com/modes8homework.html

He says: "You MUST be able to know this chart by heart. and the best way to do that is to draw it out on paper by memory until it becomes second nature."

That is all I'm trying to do. And, if some other new guys/gals find my charts/diagrams useful, then I am happy for both of us. If some find my way of searching for truth to be irritating or irksome, they have the choice of not clicking on the response when they see my name.

Ray Shakeshaft · From: Kidderminster, Worcs, UK.

Andy said in 2003

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Far be it from me to lock the gate on anyone's musical enthusiasm! Folks have been wrestling with these issues for years and it's part of the overall charm of steel guitar - nothing is at all standardized. I just wanted to save you some legwork but clearly you embrace the legwork as part of your learning style. There are many ways to enlightenment on the steel guitar, Grasshopper - and when you find one that's easy let me know! So, I stand corrected; Maybe the wheel could use a re-tread or at least a shiny new hubcap. Smile

Dean Salisbury · From: New York, USA

I've been on the steel now for a little over a year. I have a 6 string 1954 national and I have that tuned to C6 and I have a 8 string Big Boss tuned to A6

I've got several courses and a mental block I guess when it comes to slants I wish someone would do a chord chart on slants for both the C6, 6 string and A6 8 string.

I have got 1. George Boards dvd course; 2. Rick Alexanders course; For some reason just have a mental block with slants. I've also got several other dvd course and music. The one I like really well is Hank Williams cd by Roy Thomson. Learning to play some of his songs but struggling with a few notes but I will get them. Well I hope anyway

Dean From NY
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I'm new and just learning - I know nothing!

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Ray Shakeshaft, thanks for the encouragement. BTW, I LOVE your name!

You are absolutely correct about using lower case "b" in indicate flat 3rds and 7ths. I first made the chart in Excel, complete with the roots colored in red, etc. I cut and pasted it into an email and sent it to myself as a test. It looked good. So I copied it into the text for the forum message. It looked good, so I hit the "Submit" button. All the formatting vanished! It made no sense. So, to cover my tracks, I made another post saying that I would send the Excel file to anyone who was interested. Then I realized that might keep me pretty busy so I quickly re-created the chart in CorelDraw. In my haste, I overlooked that the default font converted everything to uppercase.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Andy, thank you so much for your gracious response. That says a lot about you. With all your experience and dues-paying, I seriously doubt that I will find a way easier for you. But, I'm always looking for a smoother ride for myself.

As an "Oldie but Newbie", I do understand the Grasshopper reference. Next week when my Boyett Glass Bar arrives, you can call me Glasshopper. Smile

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Dean from NY, I will gladly (eventually) make a set of charts for all of the slants in 6-String C6 Tuning.

In the meantime, this is an easy thing to do. I believe you will get a lot more out of it if you sit down with a major scale chart and work it out.

Attached below is a Major Scale Chart for C6 Tuning. While there are other possibilities for slants, some of the most useful are in 3rds and 6ths "double-stops", or two-note harmonies.

First, take a look at 3rds harmonies on the first two strings. The open strings are C and E. This is a 3rds harmony. Draw a straight line from C to D. Pluck these two notes with the digits of your choice. Next up on the 1st string is the note "F". It harmonizes with the D on the second string. This is a reverse slant. So is E and G. Then we have two straight bars with F/A and G/B. Continue the pattern. Print out a few copies of the scale chart and learn them a string pair at a time.

Strings 2 and 3 are all straight bar or forward slants.

Strings 3 and 4 are all forward slants, but some of them span two frets and the rest span 3 frets.

Then, take a look at other possibilities in 3rds while skipping a string or two.

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Next, work out the 6ths harmonies. Strings 5 and 2 come to mind first. String 5 open is E. String 2 open is C. They are a 6th apart = 1-2-3-4-5-6 or E-F-G-A-B-C. Draw lines between the two notes all the way up the fretboard: F/D, G/E, then straight bar for A/F and B/G, etc. If you start this harmonized scale at the 12th fret and work backward to the open strings, you will be playing the first 8 notes of "Joy to the World". This sounds more complicated than it really is. Grab a pencil and prove to yourself how useful this can be when you do a little of your own legwork.

Ray Shakeshaft · From: Kidderminster, Worcs, UK.

Whilst I am a great fan and user of ChordAlchemy for other stringed instruments I think this is the best for LS http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/chordlocator/generic.php

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Wow! You are right.... That is a valuable tool. It shows me possibilities that I have overlooked using conventional scale charts. This is certainly the right thread (Grips) to post this link.

What is it?

It is a "Grip(s) Locator". It provides this without the burden of sifting through note names or intervals!

It is "Chord-Tab". This is really profound.....

It is a "Slant Locator". I just now realized that Dean's question about slants may have been more chord-oriented than 2-note harmony related. If so, this is your answer. This program allows you to show straight bar chords, forward slant chords, reverse slant chords, and split bar chords. And, you can display any combination.

It is a "Close-Voicings Locator". This is a real eye-opener for me. While waiting for my instructional materials to arrive, I've been looking at grips and slants, etc. I would like to learn to play some of the old hits from the 1950s that use the 1-6-2-5 chord progression. Chord melody systems often like to keep the chord voicings close together. With my current miniscule knowledge, I have been sliding up and down all over the place. Seeing some of these slanted chords opens up a new world for me! It's like having some new toys to play with. Smile

Thanks again Ray Shakeshaft for posting this gem.

Andy, I see what you mean about re-inventing.

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Thanks, Ray. There are a million and one ways (okay, maybe not, but a bunch of 'em) to play I-VI-II-Vs in C6th or C6/A7 tuning without huge leaps. These are probably obvious, but here are a few vanila versions without getting into extended chords and complex subs. The 2nd one subs D minor for the IV and the last one subs an Fmaj 7th.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Andy, thank you kindly sir! That lovely sounding vanilla stuff is just what I wanted. Simple and pretty is what I like. A well defined melody is what rings my bell, musically. Improvisation has never been my thing. I tried really hard to learn jazz guitar, but musical taste cannot be forced.

I have learned more about the things I need to know and the things I need to learn, this year (3 days), than in the past year (Oct.-Dec.). John Ely's Chord Locator and your vanilla changes will keep me motivated for a good while. With what I have learned here today and my conversations with maestro Josh Cho, I am finally realizing that I CAN DO THIS!

I am going to be free of "TAB Slavery"!!!

Dean Salisbury · From: New York, USA

Josh, where do you live in NY, I live in NYC, staten island to be exact

dean from NYC, Staten Island to be exact
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I'm new and just learning - I know nothing!

Josh Cho · From: New York, NY (orig. Honolulu, HI)

Dean,

Hey there! I'm in Port Jefferson, on the "Island", (*hey I guess you're on an Island too!*) waaaay out, but gigging brings me to the NYC area pretty regularly, esp. in the summer months.

And yes, slants are tricky...mostly because they're moving targets: i.e. the slant you use down on the fifth fret position gets tighter as you move up into the higher register.

I'd love to help you with 'em, so if your business ever brings you out this way, just let me know.

I've been known to have fellows from the City come out on occasion for half-day workshops at my studio if that's something you'd like to consider as well.

Best wishes.
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Lap-n-Console Steel Guitar Lessons

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Glad to help. There's opportunity for endless creativity in the variations. Here are a few more. Add the the C# on string 6 and you have a G7 on the last 4 strings on the 10th fret. You can sub dim and aug chords for the G7 too. There are good reasons why many, many players have opted for C6th or C6th/A7 for all kinds of music. If you want a modal, celtic sound it won't get you there but it works for many more genres than you might think at first glance. Anyway ...

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Dean Gray said: "I'd like to hear how you go with Jerry Byrds course after you've spent some time with it. I am sure all of the slants, especially split slants, will open up even more possibilities for you. I am waiting on Scotty's 20 songs for C6 book, to expand the repertoire a bit, and then will be studying Jerry's course also."

Hi Dean, just something to consider: If you study the Jerry Byrd course FIRST, then maybe you can write "Dean's 20 Songs for C6 book". Smile

I posted a thread on the table of contents for this course. My goal, in ordering the course, was so that I can learn to arrange and play MY FAVORITE SONGS, instead of someone else's favorites.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Dean from NY said: "For some reason just have a mental block with slants. I've also got several other dvd course and music. The one I like really well is Hank Williams cd by Roy Thomson. Learning to play some of his songs but struggling with a few notes but I will get them."

Well, there is somewhat of a solution. If you like Hank Williams AND you are having trouble with slants, you could order "Your Cheatin' Heart" Steel Guitar Song Book by Don Helms (Compiled and Edited by DeWitt Scott). It contains 10 tunes with NO SLANTS. The 6-string tuning used is E6. This is exactly like C6, only tuned a minor third (3 frets) higher. You could either follow the tab from the book or re-write/transpose the tab. You could also use Amazing Slow Downer to change the key of the tunes on the CD to match your tuning.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Andy, more good stuff! I appreciate your time and effort to put these progressions together. In the near future I hope to become musically smart enough to do some of these things on my own. But, in the meantime, thank you again.....

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