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Topic: Improved tone with shorter cords? |
Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 31 Dec 2008 8:47 pm |
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| I don't know if it's my imagination, but I think my tone improved when I made a three foot cord to connect the guitar to the pedal. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2008 11:07 pm
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Cords have capacitance. They act like a low pass filter. Long cords bleed off a lot of the high frequencies.
You can minimize the effect by shortening your cords, or by lowering your line impedance close to the pickup with something like a Matchbox or Freeloader.
_________________
-š¯•“š¯•†š¯•“- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ray McCarthy
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 4:49 am
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You weren't immagining things. And it's not only length. When I switched to George L cables from the cheap ones I'd been using I was amazed at the difference, especially in the higher registers--a clean, silky edge on the sound. I've been using a 3' cord on the pedal, and a 7'cord to the amp.
Derby SD-10, NV-112 TrueTone, Goodrich 120. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 5:32 am
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Back in the CB radio craze, it was an established fact that the length of the coax cable had a direct bearing on the efficiancy of the transmitter. Could there be a formular for length of guitar cords? b0b stated that the length had a direct bearing on tone high/low,is there a formular, or just cut, and try.
FWIW, I always make my cords just long enough for the application, plus enough to have room for a couple of repairs(Geo L), also lable them and cover with clear heatshrink, makes for an easier and faster setup .
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 6:40 am
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| Could there be a formular for length of guitar cords? |
Yes, I suppose there could be, but it would vary with the brand of coax you're using. The best and simplest thing to do is to always keep them as short as possible. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 7:19 am
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At radio frequencies,standing waves on the transmission line ( ie. the coax from transmitter to antenna ) become an issue. I'ts an impedance matching / power transfer thing... having just the right length of cable can be important. This usually does not apply at audio frequencies, just the low pass filter effect b0b refers to. So bottom line is if you want the most brilliant possible sound, get a matchbox, or use George L's cable & keep it short.I just bought some and was astonished at the difference it made.On the other hand, it's not unusual in the guitar world to use a longer cable to tame an overly bright guitar... should work on steel too. I'm just waiting for some ham (radio operator) to chime in on this one... 73 de CR.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 8:02 am
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Years ago Guitar Player magazine did a test of various cords and found significant tonal differences. George L's really were noticed in the 6-string world due to that article - I'd been using them for years but they were hard to find, and soon some of the big chains were carrying them.
The capacitance has an effect on the clarity - it's almost like a presence control on an amp; with lower-capacitance cables the highs are clearer and the overall sound is less muddy than it is when compared to the same setup using high-capacitance cables.
It was interesting in that the second best cable (at the time) was a cheapo from Carvin; big-name brands like Monster did not fare well at all (something I've noticed in "blind" testing as well - Monster cables seem to be the most constricted-sounding of all...yet one of the highest-priced brands). The current highly-promoted brand seems to be Planet Waves, which to my ear is Monster revisited - overpriced and muddy sounding.
Length itself though is not necessarily the deciding factor - it completely depends on the cable. Albert Collins had the clearest, most biting treble tone I have ever heard coming out of a Tele (and I've heard some terribly unbalance Teles) but with good low end as well - and he used a ONE-HUNDRED foot cord so he could wander around the audience (as did Buddy Guy, who has since gone wireless - another interesting option that seems, with better units, to fall about in the middle tone-wise).
Many players have used particular cables for ton - Clarence White used one curly-cord most often as it gave him LESS highs and stronger mids, and it worked well with his Red Rhodes Velvet Hammer pickups and custom distortion box. Hendrix also favored the cheap curly cords, and I keep one around for certain studio uses.
I use almost all George L's, but live often run a 40' long custom-made cable with unplated brass plugs from my pedalboard to amp - it adds some "beef" to the sound and cuts the highs just a hair. If I switch to a George L cable I get a more icepicky tone (this is with my two primary Teles and my Trussart Steel DeVille; my steels seem to work well with either).
I also have about 150' of some Belden cable (no part number marked on it) that is marked "hospital grade" give me by a late friend; sheer laziness (and lack of hassle) keeps me using George L's, but I put one 15' cable together with this stuff and switchcraft plugs, and the capacitance was nearly zilch - lower than even the George L's. My oldest son bagged that cable; I need to eventually make a whole mess of 'em!
The last thing - some players find the whole cable thing to be complete hooey - they can't hear ANY difference at all. Yet others can pick out the sound of certain cables with their back turned. It's the same as amp or guitar tone - some have an ear for it, and some just don't.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 8:27 am Improved tone with shorter cords?
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| I have always understood that you can have cords up to 20 ft. long without serious loss of highs. Just something I read many years ago. Also, there was a technical article here on the forum once that said cords should be in 3 ft. increments. So you would use a 3 ft. cord from the guitar to the pedal and a 9 ft. or 12 ft. to the amp. I can't beleive that my ears could tell the difference between a 9 ft. cord and a 10 ft. cord, though. I bought all George L cords and although they were cleaner sounding, they fact that they did not loose the highs like my regular cords did, I had to quit using them for that reason. Even with my old cords, my Emmons PP and Steel King amp I still have too much high. I have the tilt and the treble completely cut off on the SK, and sitll, I am fighting too many highs. Cord length and brand of cords do have a difference in the tone. I have experienced it first hand. High impedence is very subject to loss of highs, whearas, low impedence is not. Quite a few years ago, when the Lil Izzy's first came out, Herby Wallace was demonstrating them at Scottys. He had a really long cord which made the guitar sound muddy. He then plugged in the Lil Izzy, which converted the signal to low impedence and the difference was amazing. No more muddy sound, but crystal clear highs. I am using a Hilton Pedal. Does anybody know if it converts the high impedence pickup signal to low impedence? |
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Ulric Utsi-Ć…hlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 9:23 am Cords...
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If we add effect pedals into this equation thereĀ´s
even more to think about...some players fork out
big bucks on various "boutique"-pedals,only to find out that the guy who bought the lower-priced BOSS
pedal doesnĀ´t notice any hi-freq loss,because his
pedals are buffered...so,if we stick with the old
hi-impedance systems,yards of cable,"true-bypass" gadgets etc,itĀ´s
a good idea to include some kind of line driver.
McUtsi |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 9:45 am
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Personal opinion: I believe too much Emph. is put on cords, and not nearly enough credit is put on a good "old" Fender Twin Reverb. But hype does sell items.. 
Also, the 3 ft., 9 Ft., etc.. Would more pertain to RF than AF.
Again, I'm not saying a cord won't or can't change the tone. But what I am going to say, is if anyone has an amp that can't overcome the dif., then they'd best buy one that would. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 9:58 am Re: Improved tone with shorter cords?
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| George Kimery wrote: |
| I have always understood that you can have cords up to 20 ft. long without serious loss of highs. |
Well, that depends. What's seriously handicapping to one player might be totally inconsequential to another. Nonetheless, I feel it's wrong to make statements like that, as some will take anything they read or hear to be gospel.
| Quote: |
| Also, there was a technical article here on the forum once that said cords should be in 3 ft. increments. So you would use a 3 ft. cord from the guitar to the pedal and a 9 ft. or 12 ft. to the amp. |
That's hokum, pure and simple.
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| I bought all George L cords and although they were cleaner sounding, they fact that they did not loose the highs like my regular cords did, I had to quit using them for that reason. Even with my old cords, my Emmons PP and Steel King amp I still have too much high. |
Then either your amp is defective, or you don't know how to set it. You should be suspicious whenever you're the only one that has a problem with a particular amp/guitar combination.
| Quote: |
| Herby Wallace was demonstrating them at Scottys. He had a really long cord which made the guitar sound muddy. He then plugged in the Lil Izzy, which converted the signal to low impedence and the difference was amazing. No more muddy sound, but crystal clear highs. |
Wouldn't it have been far easier to just stop using that cheap 20-foot cable?  At any rate, there are thousands of steelers that don't use an Izzy or a Steel Driver, or a powered pedal, and they're having no problem at all with their sound. Once again, be skeptical whenever someone tells you that such-and-such is a "must have", and yet a lot of players are doing just fine without it. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 10:23 am
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| A few months back Guitar Player mag had a comparison of most of the cables on the market. They grouped them by price. In general the highest priced ones were better than the lowest priced ones, but for any particular brand the price was a poor measure. There were some sleepers and some duds in all price ranges. George Ls were one of the best bargains, because they were middle priced, but as good or better than many of the highest priced cables. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 10:38 am
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Rather than using different cables for tone adjustment, you might get the lowest capacitance cable you can find, then build a box with a rotary switch to add .001 mfd caps like the Les Paul Recording guitar did.
Googling "Belden hospital grade cable" leads to power cables referred to as "hospital grade," not audio. I'll ask my geeky amp tech what to look for to get the lowest capacitance.
This is not a trivial issue, as a "too edgy" tone can affect your playing, if you hold back your attack as a result. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 11:54 am
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| Rich Peterson wrote: |
This is not a trivial issue, as a "too edgy" tone can affect your playing, if you hold back your attack as a result. |
So true, Rich. I'm working through that issue right now, regarding tone settings, speakers and right hand attack. I'm going to try a long cord between my guitar and V-Pedal to see if it tames the "ice-pick" a bit. Looking for that very narrow sweet spot of "presence" frequencies before the "ice-pick" frequencies. Maybe the long cord will work in an area the combo amp tone stack doesn't. If it was good enough for Lloyd... |
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Charles Dempsey
From:
Shongaloo, LA
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 8:20 pm
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It's not your imagination. Cords and stomp boxes sap tone.
Use the shortest cords you possibly can. Put your effects on an effects loop. If your amp doesn't have an effects loop, add one.
Charlie
_________________
Yes officer, I know I smell like beer. I'm not drinking it, I'm wearing it! |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2009 8:58 pm
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Another interesting tidbit. We've discussed how more cable capacitance changes the tone. What's interesting is that not only does the capacitance cut the highs, but it also shifts the resonant peak of the pickup downward as you increase the capacitance. So it's not just a darkening tone control effect on the highs, it's literally re-voicing the midrange and treble response of the pickup. In most cases it's pretty slight, but with super long or those old coily cables, it's actually quite significant of a tone change.
Brad |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 6:20 am Something to thank about in Cords.......
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Question: If all of these (supposedly) great items that are now out on the market, many at outragious prices,(speaking only of cords for the moment) yet the sound that EVERYONE is, and has always been, talking about is the sound of the OLD PUSH/PULLS.
All one has to do is ask the question: How was that ever possible? I mean, how was those GREAT SOUNDS (tones) ever possible, since all of this modern day hi-tech (bull crap) wasn't even out on the market?
Everyone of that generation era, can and will tell you, that we were all using (for the most part) back then, those darn old CURLEY Cords.
Would anyone want to buy a modern cord to put on and change a tone on what was always considered to be the standard of what everyone's always comparing to come up with in the first place?
People amaze me at times. They want the old great sounds (tone), we'll say, (and it could be any) but for the most part they're usually referring to using the name of Sho-bud or Emmons, and a few other top brands for the old era.
Then folks, go back to the basics, and you'll more likely that not, come pretty close to having what you've been looking for in all the wrong places.
There were no tricks to any of it. We only had the (what's considered now) No Good Cords, to work with. Ah! Proof that those older horrible (by todays standards) cords, (full of capacitance) possibly worked miracles, and many today are going right on past that portion of it, in trying to achieve those same great tones of the old era.
The trick to it was mostly, no tricks at all. Modern day Hype has people running in all the wrong places, right on past it, for the most part.
Anyway, it would be interesting to hear from more of the players from back in that great era, and get their opinions of exactly what I've just said.
Again! Yes! Cords can and will change your tone. I'd just not say, it's all for the good of the tone you just may be looking for and never find without reverting a bit in the backward direction... Don  |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 8:02 am
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Don,
I find it very hard to disagree with your logic.
The only factor that I can see working against it is the fact that back then, our pickups were typically wound far lower than today. And that seems to be a key factor in the formula of the classic great tones from the golden era of steel guitar. For example, I've had some old push-pull single coil pickups from the '60s and they were wound real low, one at around 12.5k and another at about 15k. In more recent decades they're often wound 30% to 50% more than that, sometimes over 20k for that same Emmons bobbin. I think that with these modern super-hi-z pickups, the cable capacitance has become even more of an issue in trying to achieve clarity and sparkle in the tone. When pickups are that hot, it's easy to lose the sparkle and sweetness as the midrange takes over.
So it seems to me it would be a good, old-school experiment to try some vintage, "underwound" pickups along with some good old, high-capacitance cable, plug into an old tube amp and see what happens. I bet it would sound great, or at the very least it would sound classic.
Brad |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 8:53 am
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Brad, you ARE definitely correct in speaking of the windings in today's pickups, having a dramatic change on things. I absolutely agree.
I was going to throw that in as well. In saying that my single coil pickups, in both necks, were only 10.6K, as measured with a Beckman (Bench) Tech 360 Digital volt/ohms meter. As compared to today's pickups, as you said.
My feelings always have been, if somethings not broken, then don't fix it.. 
I've never been able to get the sound I like using a solid state amplifier. Another to me, very important part of the total equasion. I'm not saying that solid state isn't good, or even incinuating that at all. What I am saying is, (to my liking) you simply can't beat the old Tube Fender Twin Reverb, with a JBL D-130.. I'm now speaking of the Rated: 100 Watt RMS, Fender Twin. Which would be pretty close to 200 watts (I believe) of music power.
But again, yes! That's going back in time, and I've done lots of change overs, on my original Fender, and she's still going strong... I also might add, that NO I've never had the opportunity to try out the newer Solid State Amps, of which may provide a better tone, than what the one's were that I have tried out on the job, from time to time.
Thanks Brad for clarifying that... Don |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 12:46 pm
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George, if you want to cut the highs, there is a tone adjustment on the Hilton pedal. You have to remove the bottom and you will see a small adjustment pot, your's might be set to bring out all the highs. I'll bet that will make a huge difference for you.
_________________
Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 4:29 pm
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| Don Brown, Sr. wrote: |
I've never been able to get the sound I like using a solid state amplifier. Another to me, very important part of the total equation. I'm not saying that solid state isn't good, or even insinuating that at all. What I am saying is, (to my liking) you simply can't beat the old Tube Fender Twin Reverb, with a JBL D-130.
... Don |
Again Don, I agree wholeheartedly.
Brad |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 5:04 pm Push/pull Tone
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When the p/p guitars were being made, was before the first Peavey PSG amp, I believe. Not just lower impedance pickups, but the higher input impedance of the tube amp would retain highs, perhaps in spite of a coil cord.
Maybe someone should bring out a tube-driver buffer, with lots of headroom, for steelers. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 5:55 pm
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Rich,
I'm almost 5 years ahead of you on that one:
http://www.sarnomusicsolutions.com/products/sgbb.html
Forgive the shameless self-promotion, but I couldn't resist. When I got into steel about 8 years ago, I just couldn't make transistor amps work for me, but I appreciated that most everyone uses one. So I came up with this simple device to "inject" some clean tube factor into the equation as well as literally drive the pickup with a tube to re-create that tube amp input condition that the pickup sees. We went all out with the Black Box using real high end guts and a true 300v B+ power supply. Works like a charm.
Brad |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 2 Jan 2009 8:54 pm
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| These comments are fascinating! I'm learning a lot here. Anyway, over the years I don't recall all the brands of cords I've used, but right now I try to use Belden as much as I can. They seem to work good and they are affordable. I would like to try out George L, though. |
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