Right foot has "jerky" motion

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

I've only been playing a few weeks. Mostly without the VP, but when I do fool around with it, my right foot doesn't go down in a smooth motion. It's kinda jerky, is the only way I can describe it. Bup-bup-bup-bup. I think it might be that I haven't stretched my foot in this position before? Oh Well

Does/has anybody else have/had this problem? And does it go away with practice?

Mike Archer · From: church hill tn

Pete

think of it this way
vol pedal is for expression more then volume
but you need some vol
pick strings 56 and 8 with b pedal down
and slowly bring in your a pedal and ease your vol pedal down and not all the way
just about half way.......

act like you have a egg between your foot and the vol pedal never pump the vol pedal
does this help?
Mike Very Happy

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Pete - What kind (brand) volume pedal are you using? Perhaps it's the pedal, and not you.

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Mike - I think it's either a "getting my leg in shape" deal or a relaxation issue or BOTH! Shocked

And I'm not in bad shape so it's weird. I'll try to think about the "egg" and see if that helps. I know I'll get through it eventually, just wondering if anybody else had the problem.

Lee - it's a Goodrich and I'm pretty sure the problem is me and not the pedal(darn it!)

I appreciate any and all input Smile

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

Your right foot is your gas pedal. Your left foot is your clutch.

Once I was sitting in on steel with the other band in town -- the town was Fort St. John BC, around 1980 & I'll never forget, because I think it was the only time I ever sat in with another band on steel -- I did a little tremolo with my right foot & then couldn't stop, my foot kept shaking away. Weirdest thing, because I didn't think I was nervous. I just had to lay off the volume pedal, which actually not such a bad thing to do.

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

I've only been "playing" (I'm being nice to myself with that term) for about 5-6 months. I do recall early on, that it seemed as though i had the pedal backed off all the way, or floored wide open. Not that I have it mastered yet, but it did seem like I could not make minor/subtle changes in the volume. I would say you just need to keep at it and you will slowly/gradually develop some finesse with the pedal. There is, I suppose, the possibility that you might have some problem with the motor nerves in your right leg. But, assuming that is not the case, I would say your control of the pedal will improve with time. Like I said, I'm no expert, but thought I'd share my experience with getting used to the volume pedal. It just takes some time, so don't be too critical of yourself, you'll get there.

-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

remove the volume pedal, replace it with an 8 inch piece of 2x4.Set the volume pedal off to the side at 1/2 position, practice like this for a few weeks. Or just put your right foot on the floor. Get it off the V Pedal, you are trying to learn too much technique too fast and all at the same time.

good luck

tp

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

I agree with what everyone else has said - they all make good points.

This is probably happening, too, to one extent or another. As one just starting out on steel your mind is trying to control and move each of your hands, feet and legs differently. Your right hand isn't doing what your left is, both feet and legs aren't either. Your brain is doing its darndest to get everything to do something different and, on top of that, to do everything in sync with music and time. That's a lot of things to control.

As a result, in your case, your right foot isn't being cooperative - yet. But it will as you play and practice more. You're working on the gross motor skills and you will master those. Energy and persistence are the keys.....

Really, when you think about it, the same thing happens to ALL of us no matter what the skill level is. For example, I constantly make new and harder demands on my right hand for picking, blocking, tone, etc. And it often doesn't want to cooperate! It has a mind of its own. It's the same thing, only it involves finer motor skills.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

What Lee Baucum said, could be where the problem is at.

Take the volume pedal in your hands without it being hooked up to the guitar, and using only your fingers, grab the front and back of it. Then slowly work it up and down, (using only your thumbs) stoping in different places. If you feel a hitch while stopping and starting it ever so slowly, up and down, then depending on the type it is, it would need to be adjusted to where that doesn't take place.

However, the pedal SHOULD maintain, it's position, regardless of where it is you stop it at, from full on, to full off, and anywhere in between.

If it's a stringed pedal, I've seen them with too many wraps, and it will do the same as what you're describing. Sometimes, the side (pivit points) screws are in too tight, and/or simply needs a drop of oil.

PS: If it works smooth with your thumbs, then it's simply you not being use to using one. In that case, start using it, and don't set it aside! You'll need to get the hang of working with it, so it may as well be now. Sooner, is better than later in that direction of learning to play and play well.

Hope that helps,

Don

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Thanks again for the suggestions guys!

It's definately not the pedal. The motion on the pedal is fine. In other words, there's no hitch in the motion.

I should've been more clear in my original post. The problem starts when my foot is in the UP or OFF position. When I try to apply preasure, even the slightest amount, my foot will jerk to the (roughly)1/4 open position, then to the 1/2 open, etc. It's definately a motor or muscular thing because just sitting here at my computer, my foot pretty much does the same thing, when I lift my toe off the floor and set it back down.

Tony - I'm already doing your suggestion. I've stacked two 8 inch pieces of 2x4 and put that in place of the VP to "stretch" my foot, ankle and calf out. I also stand on the stairs and let my ankle drop, stretching it out and basically doing a calf raise exercise.

Don Sr. - I agree with you, at some point I am going to have to use it. Right now I'm focusing on remembering chord positons and right hand technique. When I use the VP, I have a tendency to loose everything. When I feel like my right/left hand and left foot are a little more "second nature" then I'll work the VP in. Right or wrong,(and it's probably wrong) that's what I'm comfortable with right now.

Now, my concern is that nobody else seems the have this problem Shocked

Uh-oh. I WILL get through it, I DO know that and I will play this thing properly. Notice I didn't put a time line on that.LOL.

Thanks again Chuck, Eric, Lee, Jim and all - information from people in the know is invaluable!! I've learned so much from this forum.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Pete, it is not about stretching your foot, it's about playing and keeping your foot stable. Practice a few weeks, get other things down while keeping your foot steady, thats what this is about, not stretching your ankle. Your right foot can't move up and down if it is planted firmly. In a month, come back to the right foot and volume pedal after some right hand, left hand and left foot experience.

good luck

tp

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Pete,

When I was in grade school. I use to raise my right leg up on my toes while sitting down, then start down, and a nerve or something would automatically start making my leg go up down. I've never heard anyone else say that until now.

You may end up having to tilt the pedal up in the back more, so your foot starts down at a different angle until you get it to where it's angled ahead of that trigger point that makes your foot start jerking.

But you're right. Do it any way that suits you. All folks can do it try to help, bottom line has to be his/her own decisions in what works or doesn't work for them.

Best of luck and hope it all works out for ya.
Don

Roger Francis · From: kokomo,Indiana, USA

What Tony said is good advise, i have a student i've been teaching for about a year now and i took his volume pedal away from him shortly after starting his lessons cause he had the same problem, after a few months with out the pedal it seem to give his ears use to a steady volume with his pick attack and now he can make ajustments on his own without the jerky sound. I think it even helped him get a better tone

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Don - I used to do the same thing in school, too. Laughing

And I've seen other people do it. But, it's funny, I've never heard anybody talk about it or what causes it. Now I'm curious. Perhaps, someone with a medical background might have the answer.

AND, it might have something to do with what I'm experiencing? I hadn't considered that. The difference, of course, being - one pivots off the toe and one off the heal.

Thanks Roger - that's good to know! Smile

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Pete, I think you might find that after you've used the pedal enough to where it's not even on your mind, that will go away.

I've never had the problem during my playing, but I could imagine if I had my mind on it, it just might trigger that reaction. It was cool in school though. Felt neat when it was doing it on it's own. Ya had to hit the right spot, dead on to do that. Very Happy

It'll go away when you're playing. It could be you get a bit nervous during your practing, especially all at once, and that could make it worse, I'd think!

So just stay cool, don't get nervous and all should be fine. Smile

PS: I never did find out what really takes place for it to happen. I simply called it crossing a nerve. If there is any such thing.

Don

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I went from playing drums to pedal steel. My right foot was programmed to play the bass drum. One thing I remember doing to combat the urge to pump the pedal is taking the pedal and place it on the floor and use the seat you normally use. Physically take the guitar away so you are not tempted to doodle while doing this exercise. Just sit there and practice moving the pedal smoothly. 15 minutes a day should have you in control in no time. When you feel you have decent control, then work on it while playing your guitar.

NOTE: This doesn't mean stop practicing the guitar UNTIL you get this down. Just use it as an exercise in addition to your other practicing. This works in other areas of technique like just picking the strings without using your bar, feet or volume pedal to perfect your blocking and "aim" for picking the string you actually mean to pick. When you work on just one aspect at a time, the other things that are going on won't distract you. I say 15 minutes doing just each part of your overall technique along with your normal practice routine will help you out a lot.

EDIT: I just re-read the posts in this thread. I am not a proponent of taking the volume pedal away and just work on your other techniques until you have them down and THEN add your volume pedal. You will get to a certain degree of efficiency on all your other techniques and then have to go through the battle you are now having anyway. Work on all aspects. If the pedal distracts you while , say, learning how fret the bar accurately, then take the volume pedal away for the time you are working on your bar hand. But, I would recommend that during the same practice session, you use the volume pedal at some point so you get that down too.

Ivan Posa · From: Hamilton, New Zealand

Pete, are you using a Goodrich pedal?

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Ivan - yes it's a Goodrich L-10K (lowboy)

Richard - you sold me! I didn't consider just practicing moving my foot with the VP. Duh. So now I just finished watching TV while I move my foot up and down on the VP as smoothly as I can and I can tell it's going to make a differece. My foot is just not used to making that motion. Thanks! Smile

I also agree with you(which is a 180 from my earlier post) that I should practice with the VP. I'm actually not that bad with it and with some work I should get it. Don Sr. said the same thing and now I see why.

I feel a little chagrinned that drew so many people in this when what it really comes down to is... practice, practice, practice. So off I go.....

David Doggett · Posted 5 Dec 2008 7:13 pm

Pete, I don't think you are crazy. Just sitting here at my computer I tried moving my right foot up and down like on a volume pedal, and noticed there was some jerkiness. If I pay real close attention there is also some jerkiness if I move my wrist up and down. I just think it is the way the muscles work. Technically you are relaxing pronators while tensing supinators, and vice versus. It may be more jerky for some people than for others. But with practice we seem to be able to smooth that out a lot.

It might be a good idea to sometimes practice without a volume pedal, just as an exercise. And it may also be good to practice with a volume pedal alone, without playing with your hands. But I think you mostly have to practice with a volume pedal and hands at the same time in order to learn to do that. If it is any consolation, most pedal steel beginners are surprised at how difficult it is to get the volume pedal foot working smooth and steady, without unwanted swells. It eventually gets there with practice, but it can take months, even years for some people. That smooth, subtle volume pedal use the pros have didn't just happen automatically overnight. They've been at it for hours every day for many years.

Kenny Davis · From: Great State of Oklahoma

I think this condition probably has happened to us all, especially in our early playing days. I remember it happening to me the first couple of times that I played on stage. It's a combination of physical and mental problems: Your volume pedal foot is in an unnatural position. Couple that with nervousness, and you get this "crazy leg" thing happening! It usually only happens when the spotlight gets put on you.

Any of you guys that ever attended a Jeff Newman seminar probably heard about the time it happened to him - He was a young man trying to get club work in Nashville, and he finally got a call to play in Printer's Alley. He was really excited until he got there, set up, and found out that his band mates would include Curly Chalker on lead, and Buddy Emmons on bass. Of course, his night was completely ruined, and he figured he would also be scarred for life as well! The first steel break he had, Chalker leaned over and said "Hey man, you're tremolo is on"! Jeff said, "It ain't my tremolo, it's my leg"!!! I think he said his bar flew out of his hand as well.

With that in mind, I don't think it's a long term problem. Getting used to the volume pedal and staying cool in front of a crowd is the key. Also, try not to think about other steel players watching you either...That's another issue!!!

Ivan Posa · From: Hamilton, New Zealand

Pete, I have found that the pivot point on my Goodrich LDR 11 pedal is different to that of the Hilton pedal that I prefer to use. Under pressure I can get the involuntary tremolo effect going using the Goodrich but have no problem whatsoever with the Hilton. Try a different type of pedal, it might help.

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

David - Whew! That's a relief. Now if you'll just tell my wife I'm not crazy. Actually she uses the word "Insane!" and several other choice, colorful words. (just kidding honey)

yea, it's definitely when my foot is in the "up" position, pulling my toe to my knee, so to speak, so I know it's a matter of repeating til my muscles get used to it.

Great story Kenny! - Involuntary tremolo is a good description of it. I also call it "the Jimmy Leg". Relaxation is another matter. I find myself completely tensed up a times and have to continually remind myself to relax. Why did I want to play this thing again? Laughing

Ivan - That's interesting. I'll keep that in mind if I ever get around a Hilton pedal.

Thanks again guys! Smile

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Something I failed to mention that fortunately David Doggett mentioned. I do think that an exercise you should also do is take away the volume SOMETIMES when working on blocking and other right hand techniques. This will help you develop a more even picking volume and also the ability to alter the way you pick to vary the volume or tone of what you play just by the way you pick. Having the volume pedal active during this phase of learning might actually hurt more than help. Many use the volume pedal to hide inconsistencies in their initial picking of the strings and increasing the volume after the strings are picked. You can have the pedal under your foot, but bypass it and go straight from guitar to amp.

A little off topic, but as a beginner, you probably notice that when you bend your ankle to activate the pedals (and rocking off one to another, or releasing one while holding another down) your knee wants to move left and right with your ankle hitting knee levers when you don't want to. The exercise I used to work on this was to simply sit at the guitar and hold your knee with BOTH hand so it can't move. Practice using the pedals and concentrate on keeping your knee in place. By doing a lot of little exercises prior to really practicing, is kind of like doing stretches before a workout.

I've never met a steel player yet that could convince his wife/significant other that he/she wasn't crazy.

Colm Chomicky · From: Kansas, (Prairie Village)

You may be able to experiment with where you place the volume pedal, seat height, etc. Perhaps you can try to reproduce exactly what position you are in when your knee starts moving involuntarily and set your stance to avoid that position. I think it is not uncommon that some people when they raise their foot in a certain way will experience some knee jerking when in a certain position. I've not experienced this while playing steel but in some other positions I have noticed this, a few times in the past. I have heard it referred to as "sewing machine knee." So that may be what you are experiencing.

Jack Dougherty · From: Spring Hill, Florida, USA

I too like the 2x4 approach. In my rare teaching days the volume pedel was left out for the first few lessons, thereby ususing your right (or left) hand to control the dynamics of the volume. Then when you introduce your right (or left) foot to the rest of the process it becomes easier to control. (usually)

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