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Topic: WHY NOT A "UNIVERSAL" E9 / E6 ? |
Wes Hamshaw
From:
Pacific City, Oregon * R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 2:45 pm |
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Veteran forum member Al Marcus describes this tuning in some detail on his
web site. We read many discussions on the E9/B6 Universal but (at least to
me) not a peep regarding a E9/E6 tuning. Sure, there are some compromises
to make but there seems to be trade-offs with most any tuning you choose.
Al points out: no lock necessary: third fret is still key of G for both, etc, etc,
As we know, the late Don Helms used an E6th tuning on his non pedal Gibson
during he career and many players have followed.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much.......Wes |
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Lonnie Portwood
From:
Jacksonville, fl. USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 7:38 pm
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Hi Wes, I believe you might want to slow down and really think thru your question a bit longer. I assume you are a steel player and if so, I would love to hear your ideas on how you would go about setting your guitar up to accomplish this feat? Totally impractible if not impossible, and and the bigger question is, why? How would it make playing this beast any easier?. Just my thoughts. Lonnie
_________________
Music is probably the most "spiritual of mankinds emotions, and when practised with a pure heart, can lead one into the presence of God, who invented it. Lonnie Portwood |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 8:18 pm
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E\9th and E6th WHY ? just lower your E's on your 9th neck, play at 5th fret theres your E6th.DYKBC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 8:35 pm Re: WHY NOT A "UNIVERSAL" E9 / E6 ?
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| Wes Hamshaw wrote: |
As we know, the late Don Helms used an E6th tuning on his non pedal Gibson during he career and many players have followed.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much.......Wes |
If you analyze Don's playing closely, you'll discover that he never played the B and C# strings at the same time. With careful use of the first pedal, all of Don Helms' trademark rides are available at the same frets on a standard E9th. The C# string is not needed if you have a pedal raising B to C#.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 11:32 pm
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| WHY NOT A "UNIVERSAL" E9 / E6 ? |
Check out Zane Beck's 12 string 4+5 E6/9 tuning sometime. It's probably the best,most concise universal ever devised. It's really hard to think of anything to add to it. If I was just starting out and knew what I know now about all the tunings heretofore,I'd give it a serious whirl. |
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 5:30 pm
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Lonny, Buddy Emmons posted on this very forum that if he was starting over that is what he would do E9th/E6th U12. He even gave the tuning and set up. It was very close to what Al has on his web site. But very different than Zane Beck.
Wes search for Buddy's post and check it out. |
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Wes Hamshaw
From:
Pacific City, Oregon * R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 9:18 am
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Lonie, Yes it's good to "slow down" and smell the roses but also good to have
an open mind especially when it comes to these tunnings.
I don't have the means to post Al Marcus's tuning site but if you're interested
please click on Al's web site and look for "My E6-E9-E13 "Real Universal" 12 string tuning" - this shows the tuning and the set-up.
It seems to me that if a player has been playing E9 and C6 for some time, as I
have, Al's set up makes the transition relatively easy. Most things line up and
lay out like we're used to. You don't lose any E9 and gain E6 all on one neck.
You can trash that annoyng change lock too. Also the key of G, for example, is going to be on the 3rd fret for both E9 & E6
Thanks all for your input on this post.....Wes |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 11:13 am
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The biggest problem I have with the universal E9/E6 idea is the sympathetic ringing of the C# string when you release the A pedal. I used to play with a similar concept, and I often had to keep my pinky on that string to minimize the effect. It made my right hand blocking a lot trickier.
To me, it makes more sense to tune that string to D as the Sacred Steel players do, and lower it to C# when you want that 6th chord.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 11:46 am
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Wes-Thanks for mantioning my Website.After thinking about tunings and trying them and anylizing them all these years. I realize now that the standard 10 string or extended E9th tuning will always be used by most players, so now that we have very good lightweight D10 guitars. I would play the E9 on the top neck for commercial purposes, and the bottom neck in E6 so my fret positions are the same as E9, much easier for a E9th player to get on and understand the bottom neck. 6 srings of the E6 tuning is the SAme notes as on E9th, and in the subdominant position on the E6 , it is A6, very familiar, same as pedals down on E9th. Instead of The confusing F6,on C6. It is all relevant.
E9--E6
F#--F#
D#
G#--G#
E---E
B---C#
G#--B
F#--G#
E---E
D___C#
B---A---A major 7th9th bottome
----E
Notice that 6 notes on E6 are the same notes as on E9. So easier to relate to when playing the bottom neck. Incidently for what it is worth, all the pedals and knee levers will work on E6 setup as the C6 is alrady setup. Just change the strings and open tuning, and everything that is on your C6 neck wiill now work on the E6. No need to get under the guitar. That is a plus too.All the tabs will still work only in a different key..al.   
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 11:56 am
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| b0b wrote: |
The biggest problem I have with the universal E9/E6 idea is the sympathetic ringing of the C# string when you release the A pedal. I used to play with a similar concept, and I often had to keep my pinky on that string to minimize the effect. It made my right hand blocking a lot trickier.
To me, it makes more sense to tune that string to D as the Sacred Steel players do, and lower it to C# when you want that 6th chord. |
b0b-Or you could RAISE that C# to a D on a knee lever that is on the C6 neck raising the A to Bb giving the 7th note. So many ways to play, take your choice and do what is best for YOU....al:)
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Wes Hamshaw
From:
Pacific City, Oregon * R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 4:04 pm
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Thanks b0b for posting Al's tuning - a BIG help!
Al, It's a pleasure to have your input on this subject. Since you're the author of this particular tuning, could you give us your opinion on the sympathetic
vibrations of the C# string when pedal A is used - two C#'s vibrating at the
same time. b0b has a good point but was it a quirk with b0b's older sho-bud
or a problem of physics that can't be avoided?
Also, Al's thoughts regarding the use of a double-neck using the two seperate
tunings are ideal, but the combining into one "real universal" tuning is the chalenge here.
More thoughts? .....Wes |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 5:24 pm
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Wes-Good post, interesting.Yes, as b0b says there is a problem with the C# in there. Using the A pedals you will get two C#'s ringing out , if you wish. I like the sound of it myself, like having reverb or delay, so It does have it's own sound. Icidently I raise that C# to a D# on a knee lever to get the 2nd string sound on mine. I also use if for the Emajor7th along with the usual pedals 5 and 6 on the sixth part of the tuning, and also using ahalf stop I get the D that b0b mentioned, then with that it has a some of Zane Beck in it.
On the C# I pick the B and C# together, then hit the A pedal. Great unison sound, I've even used that little trick on rock. It used to be very effective. But again, to each his own, so many ways. I have always had E6 on the bottom neck of a D10 and when E9th got popular, E9 on the top. The best of both worlds for me. I aso do like the S12 universal E9/E6 concept too. All you have to be careful of is the C#, and that isn't bad, might even be a plus....al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 4 Dec 2008 7:17 am E instead of C
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As Jeff Newman suggests, I think pedal 8 should be on Pedal 4 right next to Pedal 5. A lot less foot moving<<
Hey Al I think your idea is super and there are probably less tuning problems with the pedal 8 lowers and the pedal 5 raises on strings 9 and 10. Lowering C to A on C6th never seems to be accurate for me. Your way of lowering E to C# is a much better idea because the string is higher. Yes, Jeff's suggestion of switching pedal 8 and 4 is a good one, IMHO. The new guys that want a 6th tuning really ought to go your way, IMHO |
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Dec 2008 7:48 am
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IMO Al Marcus is a genius on tuning any of the E universals. He worked with me extensively while trying to remedy a "grip problem" I was having due to an injury to my right hand. I have the resultant E6/9 tuning on my outside neck. But at the request of such as Michael Johnstone some years ago, I began to study the Zane Beck 12 string universal. And until Graham Griffith of Australia took the time to really explain it in the following site, I like many others, had a difficult time putting it all together:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/004577.html
Because of my now understanding Graham's discussion, I put the Beck tuning on the inside neck of my D10 sans strings 1 and 2. All I can say is WOW, I don't think you can get more 'power' out of 10 strings, 4 pedals, 5 knees, and 22 pulls. It's amazing or awesome, your choice. Wouldn't change it for the world. The best of all tunings as far as I'm concerned. But I'm not a pro.  
phred
_________________
There are only two defining forces that have offered to die for you; Jesus Christ and the American GI!!
Think about it!! |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2008 3:51 pm "I overlooked an Orchid"
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| Hey Fred, When I heard Zane Becks rendition of " I overlooked An Orchid" on the 12+14 record album I was sold on his great tuning..the man was a genius and conceptually ahead of his time. The album "Zane Beck Meets Bobby Caldwell is another album I deeply cherish. Speedy West wrote the album liner notes on 12 + 14 and said that Zane and Julian were great musicians...Speedy West was 100% correct...IMHO |
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Dec 2008 3:54 pm
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Brad, the tuning is pretty powerful. I don't think you'll get a better description than that of Graham Griffith in the post above. He did a superior job of explaining Zane's setup. I just dropped the two top strings off my S10 and kept going. Some of you folks might try it. It'll surprise you I bet.
phred
_________________
There are only two defining forces that have offered to die for you; Jesus Christ and the American GI!!
Think about it!! |
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Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 6 Dec 2008 5:33 pm
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| Maybe I'm missing something here. On a standard E9, the second string is lowered to C# on a knee lever, which on many guitars also lowers the 9th string to C#. There's your E6. If that out-of-order string bothers you, just stomp on the A pedal for a partial E6 chord at the open (no pedals) position. The only time you'd even need to reach down for that C# note on the 2nd string is to avoid the moving tone on string 5 or to have the complete 4 note chord. |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 6 Dec 2008 9:20 pm
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Fred-Thanks for the kind comments. You are a good friend. I do believe that after meeting and talking to Zane Beck back in 1968, we had a long talk about his tuning and he gave me a handwritten paper on it. I thought is was great , and it looked like he had all the bases covered with a minimum amount of pedals and Knee levers.
Kyle-Yes, you can get an E6 the way you mentioned and most of the time it will be fine. By using the 9th string D with the A and B pedals down, there is some jazz possibilities there.
However, you still can't get the exact C6 or E6 sound and certain jazz stuff as well without the C6(E6) type tuning. Most any tuning is allright if you can find what you want on them...al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 7 Dec 2008 9:28 am tunings
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Basilh-I read all your posts and respect the information given in them. Those two tunings on your website are both great and useful. you actually have the A7 , E6 and E9 on one pedal tuning, and E6 on the othere.So you are pretty well covered, as I see. Being an old pro doesn't hurt either.You must have a lot of musical stories you can tell. Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New year to you and yours...al:)
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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