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Topic: Joe Pass and Roy Clark |
Dave Harmonson
From:
Seattle, Wa
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Posted 30 Nov 2008 7:34 pm |
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| I stumbled onto this the other day. It's nice to hear Roy Clark play without the corn ball stuff. This must have been a CD. Sounds like it would be a good one to have, Here's a link for one, but you notice there are several of these and they're all pretty dang hot.[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoRq1JAwHJg[/url] |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 11:49 am
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I've always considered Clark, if I may use your term Dave, "cornball." IMHO he is barely adequate in the video. Mostly playing the melody in a quasi-be-bop style doesn't make it jazz. I suppose just doing an album with Joe Pass would invalidate any criticism here, so tell me - am I just picking on Roy?  |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 3:57 pm
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I have the CD, but it was a disappointment. Joe was featured very little, mostly did background rhythm. Roy sounded like he always did. I believe this was the last recording Joe did before he died.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 7:40 pm
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| ok, so Roy was a big star and only players knew Joe Pass.. that just seems wrong. |
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Dave Harmonson
From:
Seattle, Wa
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 7:55 pm
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| Roy Clark knew how to play for the people and is a high quality entertainer. Truth be told his biggest hits are not among my favorites, but I can't fault him for figuring out how to make a name for himself. Plus he is a fine player when he wants to be. I really enjoyed his take on these Hank songs and it seems it was most likely Joe's choice to play mostly backup. As far as that goes I could listen to Joe Pass's backup alone and love it. |
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Ray Harrison
From:
Tucson, Arizona, USA (deceased)
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 7:59 pm Joe Pass/Roy Clark
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Maybe that's what killed Joe Pass. It would take a far more accomplished "Country guitar player" than Roy to actually play with Joe.
Hank Garland was as close as they got and he still didn't sound as Jazz as Joe, Herb , Barney or Johnny Smith.
I always felt that Roy was the most over-rated player in Country. He was a great entertainer, but a mediocre singer and guitarist.
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Ray Harrison
Bass/sing/Love PSG
77 Stingray/Kiesel 5 string bass
Telonics , Fender Rumble500, Polytone Amps
D-16 Martin, 1970 Ovation guitars |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 8:28 pm
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| Don't take that the wrong way, I have been a Roy fan since I was 5.. he showed me as much about guitar as anyone.. but it still seems wrong that guys like Joe and Herb, Tal, even George Benson (before his vocal hit).. no one even knew who he was except players and jazz fans. |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 8:35 pm
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Man,I wish I could play as CORN BALL as Roy,or had one,one hundred the bucks he made playing corn ball.DYKBC.
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Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 1:39 am
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| Notice how the rhythm drops out, when Joe takes his solo? But then again, Danny Gatton said that Roy Clark had the "best right hand in the business." |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 6:55 am
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Amazing how folks can so easily pass their judgments on such great players. I have seen Pass play numerous times and I have done a gig or two playing backup guitar with Roy Clark.
Roy can't play like Joe.....and Joe can't play like Roy. They are both virtuoso players in the context of what they do best.
I watched this a while back. The sound that Pass gets is amazing. He must have been ill at this time and he sounds just as focused as always. Clark should not be judged by comparing him to Pass. He spent the last 30 or 40 years playing what he does, NOT what Pass has played for the last 50.
I liked the attack/sound Clark gets with the upstrokes with the pick.
Some of my most fav Clark is his session work on Capitol records with Wanda Jackson. This is stuff done in the 50s early 60s that was outstanding at a time when guitar players were not doing that.
Roy Clark made the transition to being a showman which Pass did not have that talent. Glen Cambell did the same thing, Vince Gill and Brad Paisley and Benson and others.
When I watched this, I got the feeling that Clark was just a bit out of his comfort zone with the more Jazz tone of the session. If the rhythm grooves had been more evenly distributed between Jazz and country and BOTH players had to play equally within those then I think it would have been balanced.
Have to admit that when Pass played his solo stuff, you see and hear something really remarkable.
Interesting pairing.
Also, in regards to the Hank Garland thing, his "Jazz Winds" recording was the culmination of his transition to becoming a true jazz musician devoid of country stigma. His playing is more Django influenced than by any country stuff. To say that Garland did not sound "jazz" enough as compared to those other players.....his playing holds up today and in light of ANY other country player who tried to do the jazz thing, Garland shows that he might be the only one to make the full transition. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 8:37 am
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I think it's cool. Roy Clark a mediocre player? I don't think so. Is this his best work? Probably not. But it's still fun to see him in a different context. Of course, Joe is fantastic here, as usual.
No point in trying to compare these guys. If you had to talk about a jazz-guitar point of comparison for Roy, I think it's closer to Herb Ellis, which is just fine by me. I hear similar complaints about Herb being mainly a single-string player, but I still consider him one of the greats.
Hank Garland's "Jazz Winds" is one of the great jazz-guitar milestones ever, regardless of association of the player with country or any other style of music, IMO. I know a number of very accomplished jazz guitar players who would argue the same line. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 9:24 am
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Dave. I have worked a recording session playing rhythm guitar for Herb Ellis. His playing was remarkable. He just bopped out lines like falling off a log! Nicest guy you would ever want to meet also.
Even so, his line composition was rooted more so in jazz than anything else. That is the basis I listen for when seeing where a player is coming from.
You can tell the player who spends his life playing "Alabama Jubilee" from the player who spends his life playing "Lush Life" real quick when you hear what he plays. This is not to say that each could not become comfortable doing both, it just shows where the thoughts are coming from at a particular time.
That is what I hear most in the Clark/Pass pairing. One man has dedicated his life to Jazz and the other has his life in a more entertainment oriented area and the library they go to in their head when they are in an improv situation tells the tale. You can hear that in the playing of both of them. It is not what each has the ability to play, it is what they have been playing and how it affects them at that moment. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 9:32 am
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| I just thought of something I saw on TV many years ago concerning Roy Clark. He was introduced on an awards show and he walks out on the stage while the orchestra is playing the intro of the tune. Timing is perfect, he reaches the mic just in time to sing the opening line and as he does so he also starts to play his guitar which is about a half step out of tune with the orchestra!!!! Whatever happened backstage getting supposedly in tune....did not happen. He smiled a little nervous sho biz smile and as he is singing on national TV live he just reaches to the headstock and starts to tweak the ENTIRE guitar tuning and never misses a lyric and the general public really never knew what was happening. Came time to play his guitar solo... no problem. That is a entertainer. |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 9:55 am
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I love most of those old bebop players,most were great in their own styles,My all time favorite jazz guitar album is Jazz Winds by Hank Garland,I bought this album about twenty years ago for 99 cents at a yard sale,it was still sealed,best deal I EVER got,Also an eightteen year old Gary Burton[vibes]played GREAT on this album.DYKBC.
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Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Dave Harmonson
From:
Seattle, Wa
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 10:31 am
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I like the way they played together on these Hank songs. Of course Roy is a bit out of his element, but you can tell they're both enjoynig themselves. They played these songs pretty much on the fly. Pick a key and play.
As far as Roy being more known than Joe Pass, like it or not that's just the nature of the biz. The general public rarely recognizes great instrumentalists. Most of the people who are buying country music today have no idea who Paul Franklin or Brent Mason are. They hear them play but only know the lead artist. It's much the same in any genre. Look at all those Motown songs. People never payed much attention to who made them sound the way they did. It's just us players who notice. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 11:26 am
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| Quote: |
| Man,I wish I could play as CORN BALL as Roy,or had one,one hundred the bucks he made playing corn ball.DYKBC. |
Charles, you should know by now that you can't equate success with talent. I agree with you however, that "Jazz Winds" is a hard to beat "best ever."
Last edited by Barry Blackwood on 2 Dec 2008 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 11:33 am
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| Quote: |
| Roy Clark a mediocre player? I don't think so. |
Dave, once again, we agree to disagree. If your opinion was the truth, then what 'mediocre' guitarists has he surpassed, so as not to be considered mediocre? |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 1:04 pm
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"Some of my most fav Clark is his session work on Capitol records with Wanda Jackson. This is stuff done in the 50s early 60s that was outstanding at a time when guitar players were not doing that."
I love that stuff too! Bill, you ever heard Marvin Rainwater's early 45' on MGM "Hot & Cold/Mr Blues" from the mid 50's? That's Roy on lead guitar playing some cool bop jazz influenced rockabilly guitar. Hearing that and considering his age at the time you can hardly call Roy a mediocre player. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 2:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| If your opinion was the truth, then what 'mediocre' guitarists has he surpassed, so as not to be considered mediocre? |
What is "the truth"? Beats me - I just have my opinion, as do you. You seem to assume that I have some rank-ordering in my head. For me it's much more qualitative, so I reject the premise that point-by-point comparisons are relevant. Some players just stand out to me, and Roy's one of them. No doubt some of my "mediocre" players are in some other peoples' "Hall of the Greats". I have no interest in going there to argue over what amounts to personal preference.
I have heard Roy play live a few times, and he just smoked. I'm not talking about his popular entertainment records or TV shows.
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Dave. I have worked a recording session playing rhythm guitar for Herb Ellis. His playing was remarkable. He just bopped out lines like falling off a log! Nicest guy you would ever want to meet also.
Even so, his line composition was rooted more so in jazz than anything else. That is the basis I listen for when seeing where a player is coming from. |
Bill - I agree with that take. I wasn't trying to say they were the same, just that - from a jazz guitar perspective - I find Roy's playing on that kind of material much closer to Herb's than, let's say, someone like Joe Pass' approach. He can't really remotely approach Joe's brilliant chord-melody approach (not many can), but I think can do justice to the more single-string approach of Herb. But there's only one Herb Ellis.
I was serious about the criticism of Herb's playing. I can't understand it, but I hear it sometimes - even on this forum. I know jazz players that insist that if you're not a great chord-melody player, you aren't really playing jazz guitar. Again - personal preference - no point in arguing it any further. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 3:39 pm
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| If your opinion was the truth, then what 'mediocre' guitarists has he surpassed, so as not to be considered mediocre? |
Let me rephrase that. If your opinion was fact. - better?
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| personal preference - no point in arguing it any further. |
You're right Dave. All we have is our opinions, but here on the Forum I'm beginning to feel that if one's opinion is a dissenting one, better get ready for a beatdown ....  |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 3:45 pm
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Barry,you said[you can't equate success with talent]You got that right,just look and listen to some of the so-called SUPER STARS today.DYKBC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 4:56 pm
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Agreed,Charlie. I feel your pain.  |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 9:16 pm
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| Gotta agree with Danny Gatton! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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