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Topic: Sus b9 chords on the E9 tuning |
Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2008 12:54 pm |
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While practicing a 2, 5, 1 progression, I hit a wrong string group on the 5 chord and it sounded really good. Wrong, but good. So, I took a closer look, and it turned out to be a V sus b9 chord. Every time this sort of thing happens, I write it all out in an attempt to explain it to myself-so as not to lose it .
So, for the heck of it, here's what I came up with as my understanding of sus b9 chords and their uses. I'd be glad for any constructive feedback on the subject.
P.S. excuse the formatting, I copied and pasted from notepad and it doesn't format well when pasting into forum messages.
Here's my notes:
Sus b9 chords
In essense, the sus b9 is a major or Dominant 7th chord with the root and 3rd raised a half tone. The Sus b9 is useful as either part of a rhythmic vamp, or as a substitute for a Dom7 chord-as in a 2, 5, 1 progression.
As stated, to make the Sus b9 chord, take any major or Dominant chord and raise the root and 3rd a half step. This can be effectively done with the I, IV, V7, VI and bVII chords as follows:
1) I chord. Add the B pedal and D lever to the root inversion of the open position I chord for a I sus b9 chord.
2) AB pedals chord. With any AB pedal-shape major chord, slide the bar up one fret and engage the E lever while holding AB pedals down to make it a sus b9.
3) V or V7 chord. With the V7 pedal-shape, change from pedals B and E, to pedals AB and B lower lever (LKV on my Carter) for the V sus b9.
4) A pedal and E raise lever VI chord. Use string grip 9, 7, 6 without pedals for a VI sus b9 chord.
5) bVII chord. With the bVII major chord, on strings 9, 7, 6, slide the bar up one fret and release the B pedal for a sus b9.
The I, IV, and bVII sus b9 chords shown above work well as rhythmic vamps by alternating between the major chord and its sus b9 alteration. The V and VI sus
b9 chords work well as substitutions as discussed below.
First, notice that their are two ways to make the V sus b9 chord either with the V sus b9 shape (pedals ABV)on the root position, or with the VI shape (Strings 9, 7, 6 with no pedals) two frets below.
Notice also that there are two ways of making a II minor chord, either with the AB pedals shape on the root position, or with the E lower lever shape two frets below. This
gives two good ways to transition from the II m to the V sus b9.
For example, in key of C, all on fret 8, you could play the II minor with the AB pedals shape, and then the V sus b9 with the V sus b9 (ABV) shape. Or, also in key
of C, on fret 6, you could play the II minor using the E lower lever shape, and the V sus b9 on strings 9, 7, 6. Or, you could start on fret 8 with the II minor in the AB pedals
shape, slide back into the II minor at fret 6 with the E lower lever shape and then drop down to the VI susb9 on strings 9, 7, 6.
End notes:
Anything you could add or clarify would be welcome. |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 29 Nov 2008 1:36 pm
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Sus4 b9 chords are most commonly called "Phrygian chords". This refers to the mode of the major scale from which the chord in derived.
There are lots of ways to look at it, but the most common is to play the root, and place above it the dominant (7th is ok, but 13th is better) chord a minor third above it. For instance C Phrygian is a C root with Eb13 played over it.
The scale from which it is derived is a major third down from the root. In our example of C Phrygian, it comes from the Ab major scale.
Phrygian chords, like Sus4 chords, are often looked at as the combination of the II-V change smashed together. For instance, if you were playing a tune in F which had a Gm-C7 change in it, modern jazzers would skip the Gm and head straight to the C chord, employing a phrygian or Sus4 chord to accomplish the sound.
Examples of where one might use it: Well, alot of places. Anywhere there's a II-V change is kosher.
It's very effective over a pedal bass tone, such as in the 17th bar of "All the Things You Are".
There are lots of other examples of where it could be used but I'll stop there for now.
This is the first post of mine about theory in a long time. I hope I don't regret it. 
-John |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2008 2:14 pm
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Gee John...I'm always enlightened by your theory posts!
Thanks |
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Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2008 5:28 pm
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Hi John,Thanks for your response. I get it-both the answer and the potential for regret. I'm mainly interested in how I can use this stuff on the steel, and that comes mostly from the doing. The same way I stumbled across it is the way I'll find out how to use it. I really liked the answer though-its good stuff.
Phrygian huh? I can see how that could makes sense as the b9 and the sus4 would be the 2nd and 4th tones of the C phrygian mode. That's a helpful little nugget-thanks.
P.S. I'm glad we drew you out. I'll try not to make you regret it. |
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2008 5:53 pm
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John: Why would you regret it ?? I distinctly recall reading some of your posts to threads on C6th and always found them both accurate and intriguing. I, for one, am really glad to see a post from you...Seems like the old days when guys like you and Chas were sharing valuable and insightful musical knowledge with the rest of us. Were those what some now call, THE GOOD OLD DAYS ??
Regards, Paul  |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 30 Nov 2008 2:51 am
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| I agree Paul; I'd love to hear more of this stuff on The Forum. You have been a major contributor also. steve t |
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2008 11:02 am
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[quote]...such as in the 17th bar of "All The Things You Are"...[quote]
Mow all I have to do is find the first one !!  
Regards, Paul |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Nov 2008 3:54 pm
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Ok... how about the first bar of "I Love You".
or the first bar of "Night and Day"
or the third bar of "The Night Has A Thousand Eyes".
-John |
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2008 4:15 pm
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Where's MILO or Buzz when you need them really bad ??Help !!Help !!
Regards. Paul |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Nov 2008 9:35 pm
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Another way of looking at it is a subdominant function chord with the bass note being the flat 6th degree of the scale. Similar to a iv minor or a ii half dim; also sim to what is known in the classical world an 'augmented 6th' chord except those would have a b7 above the bass (or aug 6) instead of the maj 7 in what John calls a Phrygian chord. I've never heard them called Phyrgian chords before but there are many differences between Toronto and Ottawa and I guess that's one of them.
Interestingly enough, there is a musical connection with the "Phrygian cap" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap)having to do with the original cutting contest between Apollo and Marsyas (see
http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Midas.html). From a pedal steel point of view, this is all about using that semitone slide to hide ass's ears ...
John, keep the theory coming. |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 3:15 am
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Could also be called a b9 11th (no third) ??
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Larry Lorows
From:
Zephyrhills,Florida, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 4:56 am
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I think you guys are terrific and I thank everybody. At first I thought this post was about a diminished chord but then I discovered you really did have a sus 4th in there. I'm not at my steel right now but I sure will experiment with this as a passing chord.Thank you. Larry
_________________
U12 Williams keyless 400
Vegas 400, Nashville 112, Line 6 pod xt |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 2:55 pm
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| Generally excepted in Jazz as a 13b9 assuming you include the 11 in your chord and you replace the root with the 13th. Extending it to a 13 helps the sound of the chord. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 4:14 pm
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| Phil Halton wrote: |
| As stated, to make the Sus b9 chord, take any major or Dominant chord and raise the root and 3rd a half step. |
This seems unclearly said. At the risk of stating the obvious, if you raise the root of a chord, it becomes a chord on a different root! If you mean, say with a C Dominant chord, playing C, F, G, Bb, Db, that is adding a flatted ninth, not "raising the root".
Accordingly, it might be worth pointing out that the voicings you suggest will only sound like a susb9 if someone else plays the appropriate root. None of them supply all the notes (R, 4, 5, (7), b9) of a susb9--they all omit the root. Taken by themselves, they are unlikely to be heard as susb9.
For example, considering the C chord with AB at the third fret, sliding up one fret and adding E lowers to AB as you suggest gives (in 4-note grips including the seventh string) the notes G, Bb, Db, F which in themselves are a Gm7b5 (1/2dim) or Bbm6, or, with the "phantom" root of Eb, a readily implied Eb9. The "phantom" root of C would indeed make a C7sus4b9, but if C is not sounded the ear of the listener would be pretty unlikely to hear it that way.
Because anyone but a piano player is going to have a hard time playing all the theoretically included notes of a chord like "C7sus4b9", I personally find it more practical as a non-piano player to think in terms of chord substitution or superimposition, like, in this case, "G1/2dim/C bass", or Eb9/C" where I'd let the bass (or guitar or piano) player take care of the C and just think "G 1/2dim" or "Eb9".
YMMV. 
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| 1) I chord. Add the B pedal and D lever to the root inversion of the open position I chord for a I sus b9 chord. |
Am I missing something here? The B pedal gives you the sus4, but where is the b9? What do you mean by "the D lever"? If you mean the E raise lever, that would give b9s (with no root in the chord), but that's not a common terminology for that lever. I've seen "D lever" used to designate the 4 & 8 lowers lever (not, I think, relevant here), or the 2nd string lower to D. |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 1 Dec 2008 5:18 pm
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It bears mention that this chord is most often used in reharmonizing existing II-V changes. It's less commonly found as an original chord written into a tune, although there are examples of that too.
For some further examples, I've pulled out an old workbook of mine, which points out that McCoy Tyner plays a beautiful example of use of an Eb Phryg. chord in the intro to Coltrane's "after the rain". Another example is found in bars 4, 12 and 28 of Wayne Shorter's "Penelope". An early example is provided by one of the true genuises of jazz, Duke Ellington, who plays a really nice phrygian phrase in the 4th bar of his "Melancholia". Although there may be other recordings of this tune, the recording I'm referencing was his "Piano Reflections" (capitol jazz). Duke always seemed at least one generation ahead of everybody.
-John |
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Bob Simons
From:
Kansas City, Mo, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 7:52 am
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I just read this thread....twice. I haven't felt this dumb in years!
I understand that all these moves can be explicate by knowledgeable theorists...but what really goes through your mind on the fly as you make the actual note choices? Or is it reflex in jazz players?
All these friggin' (oops...Phrygian) chords are giving me a headache! I'm gonna go play "Twist and Shout" for a while...
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb. |
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Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 8:11 am
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I came across this chord (sus b9) while working through Herbie Wallace's book "An Approach To E9 Tuning". In that book He references the B pedal and D (E-raise) lever on strings 8, 6, and 5 as a sus b9 chord. Maybe He was wrong-I don't know. All I know is I liked the sound and would like to find ways to incorporate it in playing the steel. I realize its a partial chord at best and only suggests the full chord. That's my only interest-aside from the very interesting history and theory behind it-to find practical ways of using it on the E9.
As far as the D lever nomenclature, I take that directly from Buddy Emmons chord vocabulary chart, so I don't think it could be too obscure a usage. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2008 10:02 am
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Well, there certainly isn't a standardized nomenclature for knee levers, unfortunately. Communication among steel players would be easier if there were.
Since a good majority of E9th players have in common the E lowers, E raises, and 2nd string lower levers, it would be nice if everyone could agree on the same designations for them. Myself, I've always liked the letter designations that suggest the notes they make (in the 0 fret position): D for the one that lowers to D (though it often also goes to C#), E for the one that lowers to E flat, F for the one that raises to F. But instructional materials from great players often do use other systems (some more systematic than others).  |
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 6:13 am
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On an old Jack Benny show, Phil Harris, his musician on the show said: The difference between me and (enter any name here...) was that "He flats his fifths while I drink mine !!"
Is there a flatted 5th in this thread somewhere; anywhere ??
Regards, Paul |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 6:40 am
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| Paul Graupp wrote: |
On an old Jack Benny show, Phil Harris, his musician on the show said: The difference between me and (enter any name here...) was that "He flats his fifths while I drink mine !!"
Is there a flatted 5th in this thread somewhere; anywhere ??
Regards, Paul |
Yes. It's on the 5th string if you take the chord first described by Mr. Halton as having its root on the 8th string (i.e., a bVI maj 7 #11 -- the #11 and b5 are the same note). That assumes the real bass note (and root) is the one given by your E raise. (Since you asked ...) |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 11:23 am
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Jim: I think you are saying what I was thinking: sus 4 = b5 ! Right ? Where is my Canadian Club when I need it ??
Al: Ain't it nice to still be here ??
Be back in a day or so; I've got to baby sit some twin pedal steel guitarists; circa 2028.
Regards, Paul |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 12:22 pm
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Paul,
No... the 4 in Sus4 is a natural four.
The b5 is a half tone higher than that.
In most cases today, theory has given way to calling the "b5" a #11. The reason being, when you look at the accompanying scale, the 5th is still there, quite intact, unlowered.
-John |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 12:47 pm
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Paul-Yes it is nice to be here yet. I remember when you wrote for Fender Fretts magazine. I read all your writings.What was that 60 years ago?
I only wish now that I could be a young 75 again..lol...al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2008 4:43 pm
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John; Thanks for that... It's odd but I just came from a YouTube of Jerry Byrd playing his B11th tuning. Just shows to go Ya !!
Al: I made some copies of those books Tom Bradshaw made of the Fender Writings. I have a copy left and it's yours for the asking. Just send me your snail mail and I'll forward it to you.
Regards, Paul |
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