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Topic: Machines, horizontal or vertical? |
Howard Tate
From:
Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Oct 2008 11:09 am |
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| I have a preference for tuning machines that stick up from the head stock because I usually lay the guitar on a flat surface and they're easier to get to. Is this an issue with anyone else? |
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Robert Murphy
From:
West Virginia
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Posted 30 Oct 2008 12:04 pm
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| I have moved several sets of tuners to the up position. That's why I prefer slotted headstocks, and they just look right. |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 30 Oct 2008 12:32 pm
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| Fry-Pans originally came with the heads down, very difficult to reach some of them. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 30 Oct 2008 8:43 pm
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Seems like the acoustic guitars of the very early years were slotted headstock. Maybe that's why frypans were made that way (?) Solid headstock would be cheaper for a production instrument.
Some folks still have the tuners on the bottom of frypans. Maybe they like the original appearance. |
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Ron Randall
From:
Dallas, Texas, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2008 6:55 pm
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Horizontal tuners will not put a twist in the string.
Vertical tuners will twist the string. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 31 Oct 2008 8:49 pm
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 5:56 am
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| Ron Randall wrote: |
Horizontal tuners will not put a twist in the string.
Vertical tuners will twist the string. |
Now THAT'S a point I've never heard made before, but DEFINITELY most relevant, especially with reference to string breakage and life in general..
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——> |
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Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 7:23 am Never heard that either...
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| Ron Randall wrote: |
| Horizontal tuners will not put a twist in the string. Vertical tuners will twist the string. |
...but, it makes sense upon analysis. Hmmmmmmm... Sure do love the ease of use and simplicity of veritcal tuners in a slotted stock, though.
_________________
Todd James Weger --
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, E13, A6); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (C6, B11/A6); Custom-made 25" aluminum cast "fry pan" with vintage Ricky p'up (C6); 1938 Epiphone Electar (A6); 1953 Oahu Tonemaster; assorted ukuleles; upright bass |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 7:32 am
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No Todd the slotted neck ones are the ones that DON'T twist the strings, or is the regular ones, or do either, or do neither ?
I vote, on reflection, for "Neither" |
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Jim Konrad
From:
The Great Black Swamp USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 9:53 am
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| Ron Randall wrote: |
Horizontal tuners will not put a twist in the string.
Vertical tuners will twist the string. |
I don't understand how they could be any different? The posts wind the same, the are just 90 degrees different.
I could be missing something? |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 10:15 am
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| Jim Konrad wrote: |
| Ron Randall wrote: |
Horizontal tuners will not put a twist in the string.
Vertical tuners will twist the string. |
I don't understand how they could be any different? The posts wind the same, the are just 90 degrees different.
I could be missing something? |
Jim, I don't think you're missing anything. I think you're absolutely right. The strings go straight from the bridge to the nut, then get wound round a roller. It doesn't matter which way the rollers are orientated, the wind is the same.
Strings come to you wound in a coil. They will try to retain that curvature, and so, when you attach them to the machines the string will lie across the instrument in the same curve. The string doesn't start to straighten out until you tighten it. I can't see that the orientation of the tuning machines has any effect whatsoever on the sound of the instrument. The orientation of the tuners is mainly a matter of convenience, as to the best positioning for the wrist when adjusting the tuning, but also, mainly, especially on lap steels, for appearance sake.
But another point is brought up here. What would be the effect of intentionally turning the strings through a dozen twists before putting them on ? It's something I'd never even considered before. |
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Jim Konrad
From:
The Great Black Swamp USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 10:39 am
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
But another point is brought up here. What would be the effect of intentionally turning the strings through a dozen twists before putting them on ? It's something I'd never even considered before. |
It would serve to un-twist them, because both styles will put a twist in the string. I guess a player would try to twist them one way so when they are brought up to pitch they get un-twisted.
After a little more thought, both methods twist the strings, at the same rate!
When one coils a guitar cord or a garden hose you actually need to un-twist it in order to get the coils to lay flat.
I think the only method of tuners that don't twist the string are the Steinberger or key-less type.
A whole different story...FWIW...
Now I know if re-stringing a fishing reel you can twist the line depending on if the spool in laying flat with the line coming off the side of the spool vs holding the spool on an axle and allowing it to spin as the line comes off. |
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Jim Konrad
From:
The Great Black Swamp USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 11:36 am
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| Robert Murphy wrote: |
| I have moved several sets of tuners to the up position. That's why I prefer slotted headstocks, and they just look right. |
X2 |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 12:11 pm
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| basilh wrote: |
The slotted neck ones are the ones that DON'T twist the strings, or is it the regular ones, or do either, or do neither ?
I vote, on reflection, for "Neither" |
Can someone with a degree in mechanics PLEASE interject with a definitive reply..?
'Though I suspect that one doesn't need a degree in anything to work out that the strings don't twist.(Unless you MANUALLY wrap them around the protruding shaft..)Then like the fishing line, they'll twist but just like the fishing line if the spool is on an axle, no twist.. The tuner shaft's orientation in respect to the string is analogous with the fishing line methinks.. |
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Jim Konrad
From:
The Great Black Swamp USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 1:07 pm
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| basilh wrote: |
| basilh wrote: |
The slotted neck ones are the ones that DON'T twist the strings, or is it the regular ones, or do either, or do neither ?
I vote, on reflection, for "Neither" |
Unless you MANUALLY wrap them around the protruding shaft..)Then like the fishing line, they'll twist but just like the fishing line if the spool is on an axle, no twist.. |
Basilh,
You are right, the only way to get a twist would be to have the string already connected at both ends then wrap up the slack over the top of the post.
It is that short cut that a lot of the solid head stock fans love. You cannot put a twist in the string unless you have a solid headstock. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 1:58 pm
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| Ron Randall wrote: |
Horizontal tuners will not put a twist in the string.
Vertical tuners will twist the string. |
This confuses me. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 2:30 pm
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I thought I was missing something too (comes with age) But I don't believe I did. Geometry isn't lying. Like said above, 90 degrees one way or the other on a tuner post don't mean squat. If someone plays a talking steel we can ask.  |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 3:48 pm
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| Jim Konrad wrote: |
| Alan Brookes wrote: |
But another point is brought up here. What would be the effect of intentionally turning the strings through a dozen twists before putting them on ? It's something I'd never even considered before. |
It would serve to un-twist them, because both styles will put a twist in the string... |
You're missing the point, and maybe I haven't explained that properly. The discussion about the orientation of the tuners hinges around whether they're looped around a spindle which is vertical or horizontal. I'm making an additional point here. Imagine winding the string up like an elastic band before putting it on. Then the string would have an intentional twist which would be permanently on the string no matter how much you tightened or loostened the tuner. Would that permanently-held rotational tension have any effect on the vibration of the string ? |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 7:15 pm
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| ...but even a wound string has an plain core. |
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James Harrison
From:
New Brockton, Alabama, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 7:23 pm
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Ron, referring to vertical and horizontal tuners twisting strings. Are you referring to tuning buttons or string posts?
James |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 1 Nov 2008 9:40 pm
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| straight up is easier......to me......and preferable... |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 2 Nov 2008 4:21 am
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| Howard, I've been counting and that's the 440th time you've said that !!! |
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Howard Tate
From:
Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Nov 2008 8:42 am
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| I was talking about slotted headstock and vertical buttons. I'm having trouble seeing how it would twist the strings, but this is not the first time I've heard that. If it twisted the strings then all pedal steels have twisted strings. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 2 Nov 2008 10:49 am
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| Howard Tate wrote: |
| I was talking about slotted headstock and vertical buttons. I'm having trouble seeing how it would twist the strings.... |
It won't. But what if you intentionally added the twist ? |
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