C6th Knee Levers - Which Would You Lose?

Chris Bauer · From: Nashville, TN USA

I'm thinking about making a couple of changes to my C6th setup for the first time in a long time. To make the changes I'm planning, I'll need to lose either my G -> F knee lever or the one dropping both As to Ab.

My question is, which would you choose to drop and, every bit as importantly, why?

If it helps in making a judgment, the floor pedals will be standard and the other knee levers with which it will be able to combine are the standard C -> B change and a lever moving both As to Bb.

Thoughts?

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I would eliminate Lowering (A)'s to (Ab)'s and also I would only Raise #4 from (A) to (Bb)! Why? (??)
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Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

I agree with John. If you raise #4 from A to Bb, you get a C7 chord on strings 2-7

I'd keep the G to F because it gives you a nice F major 7th chord on strings 2-5.
These are an octave higher than your strings 6-9

I wish I had that G to F instead of that A to Ab.

Maybe somebody can tell me what that A to Ab is good for?

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

A to Ab will get you a minord third w: P6
the G to F comes in handy cause of the root tone

A to Bb gets you a 11 th chord w: P6
an 11th chord is also a minor
A to Bb gets you a dom7 ( raises the 6th to 7th)

i've got all threer & won't do away w; any of them
A to Ab
A to Bb
G to F

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I opt for the G to F change also. It gives you an F in the middle of the tuning that is not there otherwise (unless you have the pedal that raises the low E to F and high E to D#) - which I also have). I have the G to F change to the right of my pedal 7, which is normally pedal 6 (my C6th pedals start at pedal 5). while playing the normal pedal 6, if you add this pedal, it lowers the G to F to give you the root in the middle of the chord and eliminates the 9th tone and gives you an F7. I also raise my first string D to D# on that pedal to add a flatted 7th at the top end of the chord.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Both changes are really nice! Too bad you have to choose.

I'm not looking at my steel right now, so without naming every string right now(which means
you have to carefully look a little closer & pick out the right groupings yourself)...here's some
of each of these 2 KL's "pockets" at the open fret:

* The A-Ab KL has alot of augmented type chord combos!

A-Ab---no pedals: C Aug, Am-Maj7 (w/ no low root if you lower stg 8 ), E7
(if you have the high D on stg 1)

A-Ab---w/ ped 5: CAug, D9#11, Ab7#5

A-Ab---w/ ped 6: Fmin9, Ab Maj7

A-Ab---w/ pedals 5 & 6: Ab dom7

A-Ab---w/ pedal 5 & the C-B KL: D13#11

A-Ab---w/ pedals 5, 6 & C-B KL: Ab7#9
---------------------------------------------------------
G-F---no pedals: FMaj 7 (w/ root in middle), Am#5, Dm9 ( * I highly recommend
adding a pull on the same KL that also raises Stg 10 from C to D, creating the
root fro the Dm9...as shown to me by Jay Dee via Reece)

G-F---w/pedal 6: F7 w/root in middle

*This KL (G-F) has really pretty sounding movement in all the Maj7, Dom 7, and minor 9th
pockets which I love and hear all the time used by great players...but if I had to
choose in my own playing, I'd probably go with the A-Ab for overall usability...although I do agree with Richard about the middle F. YMMV

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

Man, I won't give up any! and I only have 4!?? I already gave up my vertical because I never was used to one of them?? I have a keyless Excel (a former E9th
steel and I re-tuned it C6th) which only has 3 pedals & 4 knees, now that I removed the vertical.

Chris Bauer · From: Nashville, TN USA

Thanks folks. Keep 'em coming!

I've gotten a couple of emails asking what else I'm keeping. I'll still have a LKL with both Cs to C# and an LKR lowering the high E to Eb and raising the low E to F. I'm now trying to make a decision on my LKV between the G -> F versus the As to Ab.

The As to Ab have always felt far more versatile but I have actually used the G to F more often.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I have both but rarely use G-F, whereas I use A-Ab all the time, for 1) augmented chords, 2) minor and minor maj.7 chords, 3) descending progressions, 4) flat-5 (#11) chords, and 5) moving chromatic line effects, often in combination with C-B and A-Bb.

My G-F is on a vertical, and since that change is the most recent addition (and only on two of my guitars), and I've been playing C6 for a looooonnng time, I've never really integrated that change into my playing style in any significant way.

So my personal choice, if it were my guitar, would be to keep A-Ab and eschew G-F. More opportunities for the chords I personally use and need. But it's nice to have both, no lie.

Not that it matters in this discussion, but Big E has A-Ab as well.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Herb pretty much said it all. Ditch the one that you don't use much in your style of playing. I actually had the A - Ab lever on my Carter on knee lever #10, a staggered set of 2 knee levers on left knee right. The lever was so far back on the guitar (right at the back apron), that I had to move my booty back in my seat about 5 -6 inches to use it. So I never got it into my playing style. But as I said earlier, I have the G to F (along with string 1 D to D#) on a pedal instead of a knee lever. I have pedals 7 & 8 on knee levers, and have this change to the right of the pedal 6 (my pedal 7) changes, as the 2 pedals can be used together. It also works in conjunction with the pedal (#9) to the right of it.

Chris Bauer · From: Nashville, TN USA

Anybody else wanna weigh in on this?

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Like Herb said. Depends on your style of playing. I would give up the C's to C#'s. Whoa!

Man, I'll get fried for this.I have all the above mention changes on different guitars. And can use them all. But, for my crappy playing. All I really need is a D string on top. the C to B the A to Bb and the middle E to D. Having the middle E to F and high E to D# is nice. Also, I'm really getting into Doug Jernigans 4th pedal changes.....bb

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