scales or licks? newbie question

Jeremy Long · From: Nashville, TN

I've had my steel for a while but I feel like the bug has just finally bitten me. I have a music degree in jazz piano performance so I know my theory and all that. Because of that, I think in terms of scales mostly on the piano. I've been told that the steel is a "lick" based instrument. I can see that because the scales don't seem to be so easily laid out (on E9 neck). I know that lick playing allows you to exploit the cool things that a steel can do rather than just playing one note melody lines, however I would like to have a clear vision of what scale/notes I am playing at all times.

So my questions to the experienced guys are:

Do you know what note you're playing at all times? Or scale you are using?

Do you even use scales? Or do you just play from a big bag of licks?

Any input would be appreciated,
Jeremy Long

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Actually, on the pedal steel, the scales are layed out fairly well (of course not like a piano). You can play complete scales without ever moving your bar, or with only minimal movement depending what position (A&B pedals, no pedals, A&F pedals, etc...).

I don't necessarily know what the name of the note is as I am playing it, but I usually know the scale note number. All licks on any instrument are developed from scales. So, I disagree with the statement that the steel guitar is a lick based instrument. If listening to Curley Chalker, you could try to say it is a chord based instrument. But, it is just another instrument with a set of notes that you pull from for licks or play together for chords.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

whoever told you the Pedal Steel is a lick based Instrument,you should run away from them as fast as possible.

It's a guitar, instead of your fingers you use a BAR, pedals and knee levers to form the chords or scales.

All licks, just like a Piano, Horn, Guitar, Vibes,etc..come from scales, as you already know.

just because a player doesn't know all things come from scales doesn't mean it ain't so.

I will use the 2nd string as an example.Most guitars have a double lower, giving 3 notes , natural and two lowers. Some Steels also have a raise giving 4 notes , natural, raise, and two lowers. 4 notes capable on ONE string without moving the bar..think about it..do we think the reason is for LICKS or CHORDS ?

I did several sessions a few months back for an organization, I played on about 6 tracks for a CD, they wanted some simple slides, not really anything more than that. At one of the sessions one of the associate producers told me that the Steel was not INTENDED to be a solo Instrument.

We have ignorance on both sides of us I guess ! Shocked

Take what you already know from the Piano and send it over to the Steel !

good luck

tp

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Since you're familiar with the piano, you know that it's a linear repetitive pattern of 12 notes. You know what this 12 does, you know what the next 12 does, except that it's an octave above or below.

The pedal steel seems to be a 3-dimensional matrix. There are scales and patterns across the neck, there are scales and pattens up and down the neck and each time a pedal, knee lever or combination is engaged, it changes the 2-dimensional patterns.

Jeremy Long · From: Nashville, TN

What would be a recommended book on scales for steel? Are there common positions or should I just find them myself since I know what they sound like? I'm a bit overwhelmed right now with the possibilities...yet excited.

P.S. Those comments made a lot of sense.

Thanks,

Jeremy

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

On the E9th, if you are EAR trained with scales, which i suspect you are, they are right there in front of you. Off the B, the D or the E string right across the neck. Don't just think root note, think notes under or above the root as well.

Don't be afraid to move the bar or use the peds and knees. Playing a few scales across the neck allows you to become very aware of all of the pulls on your Steel and where they work. You will learn very fast what the relationship of PEDS/LEVERS to strings are.

IF you are familiar with scales you will find them naturally. Most of us learned this stuff by poking around anyway.

here's a question for a LICKS person..

Is Orange Blossom Special a LICK or a SCALE ?

ps.I'm not a genius.

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

I would say both. But with a VERY strong emphasis on scales. The scale and arpeggio approach can be used to learn [/b]ABSOLUTELY ANY[/b] instrument. Using that approach you will learn licks along the way. I see no reason not to use them. Just remember to keep them in their proper place.
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Amor vincit omnia

Jim Hoke · From: Tennessee, USA

Doug Jernigan has some good books out on scales, etc. So do lots of others. Do you have a double neck? If so, the C6th neck may seem more scale-friendly. You can take all your piano scale excercises; up, down, in thirds, turn-back four note, patterns, etc. - anything you can think of, and work them out on steel using different picking schemes. This will not only orient you to where the notes are (which is DEEP, since there are endless places you'll find every note) but will develop your picking and blocking technique at the same time. Lastly, GO SLOW.

Larry Jamieson · From: Walton, NY USA

There are times for using chords, licks and scales.
If you just want a musical pad behind a vocalist, grab a chord. Also useful when another instrument is playing a lead melody. If there is a pause in the vocal line, that is a space in which you can use a lick for a fill, just as you might do on the keys.
When it is your turn to play lead, then knowing your scales will help you find a way to play the melody by ear, since most steel players are not readers.
There are no limits to what can be done by a skilled steel player. Listen to Buddy Emmons, Doug Jernigan, John Hughey, Herby Wallace, and the long list would include many more. People play classical music, jazz, country, pop, and even rock and roll on the pedal steel. The only limits are your skill and your imagination...
Larry J.

David Doggett · Posted 4 Oct 2008 9:24 pm

Scales, chords, licks - ah, that is the question. Steel guitars, pedal and non-pedal, are tuned open to chords. So they are essentially chordal instruments. Chords and arpeggios come naturally.

But chords and arpeggios are limiting - sometimes one wants scales. You can get scales on non-pedal steel by moving the bar up and down the neck. But harmony is often wanted. You can get that with bar slants. But you are mostly limited to two note harmony, and slants are difficult for intonation.

Enter the pedal steel. With the pedals and levers and extra strings, you can get diad and triad harmony without slants, either across the strings, with the bar at a single fret, or up and down the neck. Thus, pedal steel is both a chordal instrument and a harmonized scale instrument.

Now, it turns out that once you have an instrument set up for both chords and harmonized scales, there are a lot of licks that fall out easily. Thus, pedal steel is a lick instrument.

So it's all there: chords, scales, harmonized scales, and licks. Skillful players use them all.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Jeremy,
Find the Joe Wright Excel spreadsheet on this site:
http://www.pedalsteel.com/

It is hidden in the "shopping cart" area.

Joe's method may be what you are looking for.
_________________
Bob

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Jeremy, apply your already paid for knowelege to the E9. Stop and take a look at it;
You know that if you play in the key of C that Dm is very powereful using the notes of the F scale. Trace these notes out, and using a backing track of say C6th chord going into F9, lay down the D minor scale, and you will soon find that this guy is billshitting you, its all in you hands jeremy, search out the scales, and find as many as you can in a straight line, dont ramble the bar all over the place! Confused

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I think the issue is some folks may not realize they are playing out of scales rather than the semantics of it all thus they advise someone this is a LICK based Instrument.

We can practice scales for hours , just like other practicing musicians and not play a single LICK.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Brian Kurlychek · From: Maine, USA

I was under the impression that a lick was a series of phrased notes, that come from a scale.
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We live to play another day.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

What Brian said. When I think of a "lick" I think of single-note lines that are fragments of scales, hopefully not sequential on an endless basis (meaning 5 or 6 notes up, followed by another 5 or 6 up or down, all without skipping a note from the scale). But whether you mean those kinds of "licks" or playing out of a bag of harmonized phrases you like to use often (if you're calling those "licks") my answers would be (on every instrument I play - steel, 6-strng, mandolin, dobro,bass, etc:

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

You should be well versed on scales and licks to be an "in-demand" steeler that's ready for anything that comes along. Everyone plays scales (even Jim and I Winking

) , but the difference is that some players don't think of them as scales. Rather, we see them as a musical statement that we describe as a series of interlinked tones, while more theory-based players see mostly letters or numbers. They know which scale will work over which chord or progression because they know the theory behind each, while we just know by experience (trial and error) what sounds good, and what doesn't.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Another thing to look at for learning your scales is beginner violin scale etudes . They are in the right register and start out diatonic. Start with the single note scale patterns. Learn a scale in one position like C major at the 8th fret. Then learn the same scale at the 3rd fret. Play it with the pedals and levers and play without the pedals and levers. It will start making sense if you put the hours in.

I had a student one time who wanted me to teach him a Garcia lick from a CD he brought. I refused but told him I would show him how to play a G major scale in single notes and harmonized in 3rds in 2 different positions. We worked on the scale and applied it to a few different progressions up and down the neck. At the end of the lesson I said we have an extra 5 minutes so lets look at that lick. I put the CD on and then told him to play the lick that was confounding him. He did it in one pass and then played every other lick on the track with no problems. Learning scales and how they function can open some big doors.
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Bob

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

About a year ago, my daughter took one of my Telecasters off to school with her. She does play some keyboards and understands the relationships of musical tones, triads and intervals , she is also a schooled drummer..notes.site reading all that stuff.

I showed her 3 scales on the guitar, one being a A scale using the E string 5th fret as the root. Two others as well.

A month or two later when she came home, she did bring the guitar back, and said this while playing chords.

"Did you know that if you play this scale across the neck you can hear the chord voicing and play the chord " ? then she played an A chord across the neck, and several other chords from the other scale positions I showed her.

I said.."No I had no idea that the scale would result in the Chord" then she said.." Of course you do , thats why you showed me the scales" !!!

She went back to school leaving the guitar behind , she said we were all nuts for putting our fingers through all that misery, we should all just play Piano !

uhmm..she may be right Smile

Bo Legg · Posted 6 Oct 2008 8:06 am

Jeremy Long wrote

Ron Page · From: Penn Yan, NY USA

I respectfully disagree, Bo. Anyone with the advantage of a music degree, jazz theory and piano should put it to some use, especially in getting started.

For a single instruction booklet/CD, I recommend Herby Wallace's "My Approach to the E9th Tuning". He covers it all --chords, scales, licks, intros, endings, songs... and the Nashville Number System.
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HagFan
Emmons Lashley LeGrande II

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Jeremy Long · From: Nashville, TN

Thanks everyone. Very interesting to hear the different approaches. I know there aren't really any short cuts. My success is proportional to the hours I put in. Just wanted to hear all of your collective approaches. Thank you so much.

Jeremy

John Kingsley · From: Los Angeles, CA

This is how I used to explain improvisation to my beginning guitar students:

Improv is talking. That's all it is...the notes are words picked out from a language, which is your scale. Just because this chord is associated with this scale, it doesn't mean you used random notes from the scale over the chord and it sounds good. You use the notes (words) to develop a phrase (sentence) that makes sense and conveys your point. Talking is improvising: you know what you're going to say, but maybe not exactly how you're going to say it!

That being said, a lot of times you can develop licks without really realizing it and play them over and over without really noticing it. Just like a word phrase someone uses all the time.

So should you go down and learn a million steel licks in every key? Yes! It isnt gonna hurt. Some will work their way into your vocabulary and some wont. Your best teacher is your ears and your records. Pick out what you're favorite players are doing and eventually you'll hear it in your playing, just like if you move down south you start calling everything "Coke," or if you hang out in the northeast you catch yourself working on those "wicked hahd steel licks, guy." Cool

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Jeremy,
I sent you an email requesting your email address, so I can send you a detailed, but easy to follow chart of scales and a few licks on the E9 neck.
Marc

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