An adjustment question

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

It's on an all pull E neck.
I have one pull rod that sticks way out. It's the 3rd string G#to A rod.
I took out some of the slack and it looks fine but when I re tuned the pull, it was sticking way out again.
Did I miss something? Like maybe back off the nylon first?

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

John Roche · From: England

Bo , what guitar have you got?

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

It it's sticking out "too far" at the changer end, either the rod is not positioned correctly on the puller, the puller has moved and not in the correct position on the crossrod or the rod is just too long.

Not knowing what kind of guitar and how it connects to the puller we can't say exactly what the problem is.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

You need to reposition the pull rod to a different hole on either the bellcrank and/or the changer.
You have too much travel in the pull rod.
That's why you have to have SO much slack in the pull rod when you tune it.
You want to adjust the position of your pull rods so that thy have just a wee bit more travel than necessary to make your changes. That allows for some fine tuning and changes in string gauges. Very Happy

PS: You may also have too much travel in the pedal itself. You can adjust the stops on the pedals also.

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

IT's my Derby. It's set up the way Charlie built it.
The Derby has 9 & 7, so it's a little tight under there. Some of the pull rods are bent to fit, some run through other pullers, and some are angled a bit. I have made some small adjustments to stop a couple rods from rubbing other parts but no major changes on the E neck.
I did change the pulls ( swapping direction only on the Cneck knee levers)
The rod in question on string 3 has an upward bend just before it goes to the puller and attached at the top hole. Both the G# to A pulls are in sync, starting and stopping at the same time. The travel is ok for my tastes.
String 3 rod just sticks out too far at the changer end.
The cross rods are square so they have not moved.
But there is a little too much play on the string 3 .
Any ideas?
BB

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Move the pull rod to a lower hole on the changer finger.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Some pics might help.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

What Erv said or hook lower in the bellcrank. Has the 3rd string rod always stuck out more than the others? ..bb

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Here are a couple pics of the puller and the rod.
As you can see, there is a slight bend in the rod. It runs thru another finger and then rises to meet the puller.
The rod is in the 3rd hole (from the top) on the raise finger at the changer end.
I guess I can move to the next hole down on the finger if need by taking a little of the bend out.

Bobby B, the rod has always stuck out a bit more than the others.

Another thing, my E levers are on my right knee, lowering to the right, raising to the left. The C levers worked opposite so I changed them just moving the rods on all 4.
Now my E lowers will not tune as they used to.
Any ideas there?

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

How about a picture of the rod at the changer end? Have you contacted Derby with your questions?

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Bo; The pull-rod is in the proper hole on the bell~crank and should be in the hole next to the body on the changer for E9 str. #3. That gives you the quickest change possible on any PSG! There are no adjustable pedal-stops on a Derby PSG, only a starting adjustment and that is how you take the extra travel out of a pedal. Good, solid Pedal-Stops are built into Derby Guitars. On the crossbar near where the pedal-rod hooks in, you'll notice a rather long Allen-Screw sticking up. It's about 1½” long and is coated with red lok-tite. Take an allen-wrench and turn that machine-screw clockwise, to remove the extra-play on each pedal and then back-off just about 1-turn to allow for changer tuning~adjustment. This proceedure won't effect the height of the pedals when they are down, only when they are disengaged. In other words, if your pedals aren't comfortable when they are down, you will still need to adjust the length of the pedal-rods themselves. It doesn't matter where the pedals are, when they are up, so long as you remove most of the extra travel by adjusting those long allen machine-screws as mentioned before. It's quite a simple adjustment to find the solution to your problem!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Here are the changer end pix, the arrows point to the 3rd string tuner.
While it only sticks out a little, it does snag the case.

Big John, If I am understanding you.. turning the long screw down will take out the play at the pedal and draw the rod back in. Then I can re adjust the pedal height at the rod end. ?
Will that affect the pedal down position?
They bottom out at the same place and are fine now.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

From the picture it appears that the spacer collar that resides between the changer finger and the tuning nut on that string is longer than the rest and needs to be changed to the the same length as the others. Once that happens it will be necessary to loosen the pull rod in the bellcrank that holds it and slide the rod in and refasten it then readjust the change and you should be fine.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Bo; The very first picture that you posted in this thread clearly shows the allen machine-screw at the top (left-center) of the pix. If your pedal has extra-travel, you remove that by turning that screw clockwise, but; leave just a little extra up & down movement in the pedal to allow for fine-tuning. This will not effect the height of the pedal, when depressed. According to your last pictures, the pull-rod is rubbing along the cut out in the end-plate! In order to correct this problem, you need a slight bend downward, in the pull-rod, just before it passes through the hole in the changer. The rod belongs in that top-hole for proper operation, but; all pull-rods need to run as straight as possible, through the holes in the changer. You need to bend that rod down slightly ahead of that hole. The only way to change a pedal height is by either lengthening or shortening the pedal-rod down at the pedal. The first machine-screw that we talked about, is the only way to change the height of the pedal in the ‘up’ position. All pedals have a ‘built-in’ solid-stop for the down-position.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Jim P, I checked the spacer collars, they are all the same length, there is only more space behind the collar. I already took the play out prior to posting this thread, but when I re tuned the nylon it put the play back.

Big John B, you wrote "the pull-rod is rubbing along the cut out in the end-plate".
Are you talking about the first rod on string one? It has always been tucked up there and I did give it a little bend to make it more accessible. It is tucked up because Charlie had to bend the rod to get to the puller and did not put another bend on the the tuning side of the changer.

I am going make the adjustments you suggest from the long allen screw to get the play out then adjust the pedal up height to where it is now. Will let you know how it goes.
There is also the problem of the hard to tune E changes to deal with since I change the C lever direction, and some pedals that do not want to return ( they release the changes but not return to complete pedal up position ..probably the return springs on the front apron.)

I rev'd an email asking about the Derby and to set the record straight,
Lest anyone think this Derby does not play well and is or has been a problem, that is NOT the case. She is smooth and slick, stays in tune, never breaks a string, and is only in need of a little fine tuning and adjustment after almost 2 years of non-stop playing, travel, new strings almost every week.

I posted here to take advantage of the collective knowledge base and because Charlie speaks a kind of "hill-bonics" dialect that I sometimes need a translator for. Laughing

BB

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Look's like a 30 second fix unless I missed something. I do speed read these post. Just loosen the allen screw on the 3rd string bellcrank and pull the rod towards the key-head side end plate. As Jim mentioned leave a little room adjustment. In other words. Pull the rod against the changer finger. Then push back just a tad.This is just Derby's version of the Emmons 4 hole bellcrank....bb

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Bobby B , i tried that first... didn't work.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Of course it didn't work!!! First, tune string #3 to open-pitch (G#). Then, push the B-pedal and ‘fine-tune’ to (A). Then, release the B-pedal. Then, turn the guitar up-side-down and turn that long allen machine-screw clockwise, until ‘almost’ all the extra-travel is gone. Then continue by tuning str. #6 open to (G#) and again press the B-pedal and ‘fine-tune’ #6 to (A) and your done. You don't adjust your pedal-height in the up-position! That isn't important! It's more important that your pedals feel comfortable when they are depressed. If you want your pedals even-height when they are both (up) & (down), you can adjust those large allen machine-screws to do that, but; you will then defeat the solution to your original problem, and you'll have nylon-tuners sticking out all over the place! Again, I should repeat that all pull-rods should pass through the holes in the changers as straight and level as possible for smoothest operation!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

John, I didn't mention that Bo would have to retune his 3rd string at the changer.But I felt sure he knew that.

Since the pull rod is free to slide thru the bellcrank collar when the allen screw is backed off.It's just common sense to slide it towards the key head side endplate. Tighten the allen screw. Then tune the pull with the nylon tuner.After of course. first tuning the string open at the tuning key.[/b]

I reread my 2nd post.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I'm not a know-it-all, however, I say you are wrong! If you loosen the pull-rod and slide it towards the keyhead, to shorten it, you will have to back way-off on the nylon-tuner to put the string back in tune and then it will be sticking out of the end of the guitar, just as it does now. The main solution, done as I explained it, will shorten the pedal-travel. When you turn the allen machine-screw clockwise, you are shortening the pedal-travel. This is just the opposite of most PSG designs and also a big improvement IMHO! On most PSG's your pedal-travel changes when you adjust your pedal-stop, but; the Derby, as I mentioned before; has built-in pedal-stops!!! _ _ _ As I also mentioned, I don't claim to be a know-it-all, but; with all due respect, anyone who does not own or has never worked on a Derby PSG, would not have the slightest idea of how to correct some problems that might arise! _ _ _ The extra-travel on knee~levers is removed in the very same manor! On all KL's you'll find another ‘shorter’ same size allen machine-screw mounted somewhere on the crossbar and turning that screw clockwise will also remove that extra travel. All these allen-screws are only adjusted after the instrument is in tune with the nylon-tuners! It's the final adjustment to make to each pedal and KL, except for pedal-height and KL=positioning.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

John I see your point. Smile

....bb

David Doggett · Posted 21 Sep 2008 8:21 pm

I got a sure fire solution. Take a hack-saw or other cutting tool and trim off the part of that nylon hex tuner that is sticking out too far. You don't need it.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

If everything is adjusted correctly, the nylon-tuners won't protrude from the changer! Cutting the nylon-tuner will only correct the protrusion, not the extra-travel! Each bellcrank should only move 1/8”+ before the string that changes the most begins it's movement.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I didn't read the whole post closely, so I might be way off. It looks like you're using a wound 6th string, but the guitar is set up for a plain string. With the 6th string pull in the closest hole to the cross shaft, the pedal travel will be very long for a wound 6th string compared to the 3rd string. This will cause the problem you're seeing.

Either put a plain string back on, or raise the brass bushing up a couple holes away from the cross shaft for the 6th string. Once either of those are done, you will need to shorten the pedal throw for that pedal.
_________________
Jim Smith
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-

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