MSA Classic 10-String Copedent Problem

Thomas Lee · From: Ohio, USA

Hey, everybody, I'm new to the forum and hoping I can get a little help.

I've played guitar for about 16 years and just bought my first pedal steel, a used MSA Classic, E9 10-string. Whoever owned it before me had it set up to some funky copedent and I'm trying to reconfigure it to a standard Emmons setup.

Here's my problem: I can only get the A and C pedals to bend up a half step, instead of a whole step. I think I've got a decent idea of how the rods should be placed, but still no luck.

Any advice?

Paul Wade · From: mundelein,ill

a pedal 1 and 10 raise b to c#

b pedal raise 6 and 3 G# TO A

C pedal raise 5 to c# 4 E toF#

LKL raise 4 and 8 E TO F

LKR LOWERS 4 AND 8 E TO D#

RKL RAISE 7 AND 1 F# TO G

RKR LOWERS 2 D/C# AND 9 TO C#
make sure all the rod's are line up go to
carters web site there is a ton of info there and
here to
p.w: Smile

Thomas Lee · From: Ohio, USA

Actually, that's my problem: the A and C pedals are only bending up a half step, not a whole step. For example, strings 5 and 10 are only bending from B to C, not C#, when I press the A pedal. When I press the C pedal, strings 4 and 5 are also only bending a half step (E and B are only bending up to F and C, not F# and C#).

I've studied Carter's site, but there's nothing on how to change how many steps a string will bend. Tried pressing down the pedal and then turning the nylon tuning nut until I had the desired note, but could only get about a quarter step, at best. Also tried adjusting the how far up the rod sits in the pull bar, as well as how far it is threaded through the pull bar. Still nada.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I can assure you that it is in the set up as the MSA guitar is perfectly capable of the correct E9 set up! Hundreds were made and set up that way.

Do you have the rod pins in the hole farthest away from the shaft? That will give you the most travel.

Is the allen set screw that determines the travel of the floor pedal set such that the pedal has max travel?

What are the return springs doing when you have the hex nut tightened all the way. Is the lower part of the finger pulling also? If it is, then you are raising the pitch, and then the lower is pulling so the pitch is going down also and limiting your pull.You will have to have the guitar turned upside down to watch the pull and see what is going on with BOTH the raise section and the lower. I am guessing with a custom set up, the return springs may have matched the set up. Do they look standard.

Do you have the correct string guage to match the return spring pressure?

Paul Wade · From: mundelein,ill

here try downloading the manual for m.s.a guitars

http://www.steelguitarinfo.com/downloads/OwnersManuals/index.html

paul

Steve Morley · From: Connecticut, USA

Bill and Thomas are pointing you in the right direction. Another question: are the bell-cranks close to perpendicular to the pull rods? I had a problem with my guitar long ago because they weren't. Are you set-up on a hard floor, and not a deep-pile carpet? Send us some pictures, if you can.

Steve

David LeBlanc · From: New Brunswick, Canada

Have you chequed the travel (up, down) theres a place to adjust the travel. Also, are youre bellcranks angeled to much toward youre changer Confused

Thomas Lee · From: Ohio, USA

Hey, guys, lots of great tips here! I'm leaning towards the raise and lower fingers being stuck/needing lubrication and possibly the springs being fatigued.

If I have time over the next couple of days, I'm going to clean the entire pedal steel, lubricate the fingers, change strings, etc.

Paul, thanks for the link to the owners manual, that was extremely helpful.

Also, anyone know a good source on the internet for vintage MSA parts (pull rods, springs, etc.)?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Thomas
What happens if you forget about the pull rods for a while, and just lean over the right end of the guitar and push directly on the raise bar (or lower bar)? Use a screwdriver or something to reach in there and push hard. Can you raise the pitch a whole step that way? When you push the raise bar, the lower bar should not move. And vice versa.
You might even want to remove all the pull rods from that string before you try this test.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

yeah..i would suggest loosening the rods completely on the troublesome strings and starting from scratch. the steel will work fine when adjusted properly.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Thomas, I suggest you send the guitar to a professional steel repair shop and have it set up properly by somebody who knows what they are doing.

Those old MSA guitars almost never go out of adjustment when they are properly set up. Once you have it done, you won't have to worry about any mechanical issues and can concentrate on learning to play.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Thomas Lee · From: Ohio, USA

And the winner is... Steve Morley! Very Happy

So, I've been up all night (hey, I am a musician, after all) and around 6 a.m. I couldn't take it anymore and started trying out all the tips you guys gave me. Sure enough, a bunch of the bell cranks were set WAY high--in some cases nearly horizontal to the rod. I set them back to perpendicular and instantly was able to get up to 3 half steps of bend! Here's a shot of the bell cranks after I had re-set a couple, but with one very janky one still visible:

To give you a better idea of how wacky the setup on this instrument was, the guy who used to own it had 1" tuning nuts on it that stuck out so far from the right side that the instrument wouldn't fit into its case properly. I found a guy on ebay who sells replacement nuts and have already replaced those.

Whilst working on the instrument, though, I noticed two fatigued parts that will need replacing: the safety spring lock on one of the pedal rods and one of the pedal "nipples", both circled in red in the picture below.

Any tips on where to find these parts?

Karlis Abolins · From: (near) Seattle, WA, USA

Hi Thomas,
You can find the part here http://www.midwestcontrol.com/buy.php?item=2382

I bought some earlier this year.
QD187 Ball Joint, Quick Disconnect, Internal Spring $2.22
Their prices depend on how many you order. I bought 20.

Karlis

Thomas Lee · From: Ohio, USA

Thanks Karlis, just ordered the parts!

And if I haven't said it yet, thanks to everyone that replied on here! Within the space of a day I went from being extremely frustrated to having all my issues with the instrument rectified (I'm sure I'll come up with some more for you all Very Happy

).

I've been determined to do all the work myself, both in order to become more familiar with the instrument, as well as because the nearest repair shop is a two hour drive.

You guys are life savers!

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Your doing the right thing learning how to do all this work yourself!

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

Steels that have been molested by previous owners can be a challenge but learning to adjust is rewarding.
I would start with new strings in the gauges recommended by MSA. They are slightly different from todays steels and are listed in the manual and follow the tips given by the guys here who know.
There were a few different knee lever configurations. According to MSA most of the knee levers were as described in the manual.
The E to Eb was on the RKK and E to F was RKL .

Wayne Link @ Linkon Steels has all kinds of parts for the older MSA. HE is listed here on the forum.

Steve Morley · From: Connecticut, USA

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

"Do you have the correct string guage to match the return spring pressure?"

Is there a specific spring guage to use for this and what should be the setting be? I've been having this same exact problem for weeks trying to properly set up a steel that is messed up and I'm about to chuck it out the window. You get a string in tune, press the pedal, tune, then let off the pedal and it's out of whack. I'm also trying to adjust the pressure of the pedals and knee levers, which is only adding to the complication. I saw the post from Greg Wisecup recently about stiff pedals on his Thomas so I printed that and will look at that this weekend, but what's with this string guage thing?

I get no enjoyment from the working on these things, hats off to those that do.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Piece of cake. That problem is caused either by a stuck bridge roller, a string that's slipping, or a pedal that's "over-tuned" (most likely). You know it's over-tuned when you turn the nylon tuning nut, and the open tuning changes. Whenever you tune the nuts, you must make sure they're not affecting the open tuning. If that's happening, you need more slack in the pulling train (and maybe a leverage adjustment).

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