Help with Push Pull tuning

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

I had to remove the 4th string raise to allow for a modification I made on my set up. I put everything back together and found that I could no longer lower my E to Eb. I could either tune the 4th string pull and the natural note or the natural note and the 4th string lower, but not both.

I observed that when I lower the note, when tuned to the raise and natural notes, the two fingers split when I lower. It seems as though there is not enough slack in the linkage for the raise.

Do I just release the collars, tune the raise and lower notes and then try to find the correct slack?

What I do not fully understand is how I should adjust the collar to accommodate the travel in both directions.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Loosen the collars. Tune the changer by moving the fingers manually. Get the lower lever in tune. Move the collar for the C pedal raise right up to the bellcrank, now move it back the width of your tuning allen wrench. Adjust the pedal stop screw to allow enough travel for the raise. There will be space between the collar and bellcrank when at rest, leave it. That is the slack space you need for the lower to work. This will get you close.... then you have to make small adjustments and check until it is just right. If the only changes you made were on the 4th string, and previous to that everything was OK, then you shouldn't have to adjust the pedal stop.... just space the collar away from it so there is slack for the lower.

Don't go crazy and start moving a lot of stuff around... this is a pretty simple job.

I can post some pictures later if you need them....

Also check

http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

Pictures would be great.

Everything was working great until I removed it. I visually remember a gap between the collar and the bell crank, but cannot recall how much.

m.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I'll be back at the house in an hour or so, will post then.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

The first picture shows the 4th string raise collar on pedal 3 in the "neutral" position.

The second picture is the same collar/crank with the E lower engaged.

The third picture shows the gap to be about the width of the tuning allen wrench.

Steve Feldman · From: Central MA USA

Nice job, Mike.
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Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

Mike,

Thanks I am going to get working on that as soon as I get back to the studio.

m.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Let me know how it goes....

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Mike,

I commend you, on your clear and easy to see, yet precise instructions on how to do it on an Emmons' P/P.

These babies have given more than one player a fit, until they discover how to do it. And you helped greatly I am sure.

May Jesus bless you for your doing this for Mathew. I am sure this is going to really help him.

c.
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Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Mike's explanation and pictures illustrate what the fundamental setup requires:
Setup the lowers 1st.
When you have them setup and are happy with the note that they arrive at, then set the raises up holding the lower in question in the lower position (I use a thick rubber band). The raise collar setup cannot begin at a position closer to the bellcrank than the lower at its maximum excursion will allow. That's precisely the reason that the raises on a push/pull mechanism are considered to be longer than on an all pull mechanism.

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

Mike,

That worked like a charm.

The only snag I ran into was that I had to adjust the pedal stop, making the C pedal depress further than the B pedal. Only a minor annoyance. It does, however, play in tune.

I reckon that I could adjust it out with a little work but I will wait and see if I become use to it like it is.

There was one thing that I did different. I followed your instructions for setting the collar and this left the lower sharp. So I tuned the raise manually, the natural and then tuned the lower. I then got under the guitar and engaged the knee lever and set the collar up against the bell crank.

Thanks for the support!

m.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

When Jim Palenscar speaks, informed players listen.

I mean this sincerely folks. This man KNOWS what he is talking about. Jim has forgotten more about the "under" side of a PSG, than most any one I know.

In a word, "Jim has been there. DONE that!

For those that need to know, heed what this man says.

I will get flamed for this, but the day I first played my brand new '69 Emmons P/P, (after buying it sight unseen), I noticed the slack (I call it "slop") in the raises, where a given string was also lowered.

I hated it then, and I hated it every time I played it. So the two happiest times in my life, was the day I bought the P/P; and the day I sold it; 20+ yrs later.

For those that this intrinsic phenomenon does not bother them, I say Hallelujah and Praise Jesus. But for those of us that it does bother, we must sacrifice 'the best sound' to get rid of that slop.

To me, there is no greater feeling (when it comes to a musical instruments Confused

) than to engage a properly adjusted pedal or knee lever on an ALL Pull PSG. And Praise Jesus for whomever came up with it.

Oh there's my flame retardar. Been ah huntin that thang! Better get in it quick. Very Happy

carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

Carl,

Was it the sound of the linkage that bothered you or just knowing there was slack (slop)?

I find that with my amp above 2 (Fender Twin Custom 15) I cannot hear any noise. Above 3 and I cannot hear the wife. Amazing how that works.

m.

richard burton · From: Britain

With my Push-Pull, I have minimised the slop by installing helper springs on the raises.

This enables me to have a shorter pedal throw, without any extra foot pressure required (because the helper springs are doing the work for me).

A shorter pedal throw = less backlash in the system.

Another benefit of a shorter pedal throw is that the left knee levers can be brought closer together, thus keeping leg movement to a minimum Smile

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Thanks for the nice words guys.

Matthew,

The procedure that I showed you was just the basic setup to get in the ballpark, you can fiddle with moving the collar a bit closer and get shorter pedal travel.... it will take a bit of trial and error. I use a slightly heaver 4th string to get that 3rd pedal throw a bit shorter..... etc. Reduce slack to the point that the change doesn't work, then back off some.
Experiment a bit and observe.
The really good PP mechanics can do wonders with these machines, but they have invested lots of time in really figuring out the PP.

Also don't spend more time under the guitar than on the top side Wink

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

She is going to stay the way she is for now. Once I get a break from playing she is going into the shop to get a E raise lever. Missing that now and I really use that a lot in my playing. So when she goes into the shop that will be one of the requests I have to even the C pedal travel. Its workin' so I go by the old saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it!"

m.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

OK I spend some time under the guitar this weekend adding a 1st String Raise from F# to G. I had to pull a spare part from the A pedal shaft so I had to undo some things to get it out. I realized that when I connected the 4th string raise for the C pedal during my last exploratory fiddling that I put the hook on the upper hole on the finger causing the pull to be longer. I moved the hook to the hole closest to the shaft on the finger, effectively limiting the movement needed to create the raise and I found I had the proper spacing for everything. I was able to tune everything without the extreme movement I needed previously.

Just wanted to post this is someone runs into this in the future. Simple mechanical stuff really when you think about it for a minute. Maybe 5th grade science class lever rules.

m.

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

Ahh, push-pulls. It's a love-hate relationship. At least for me. Love the sound, hate the mechanics. I work on all my other steels. My push-pulls I leave for Dave Peterson.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Good job, Matthew.... enjoy that axe.

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