Blues to Africa historical links

David Doggett · Posted 14 Mar 2008 10:30 am

Here's a link to the audio for an hour-long PBS program on historical analysis of the links between American blues and African traditional music: African blues roots.

Around 45 minutes there's a part about an African slide instrument played by two people. There's also an interesting discussion about the connection between Ali Farke Touri and John Lee Hooker. Ali listened to Hooker years ago in France. He rejects the notion that his music is the roots of American blues. He says they have the same sources centuries ago, but that his music is a modern extension of his own creation, just like Hooker's is.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Interesting.

I agree that American blues is a distinct modern extension of earlier African music, which got put in the melting pot of Western music - especially Protestant church hymns, but no doubt other forms as well.

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

After careful study, Art Blakey stated categorically that he felt there was absolutely no connection between African drumming and North American jazz drumming. Interesting.
With regard to the slide instrument, allegedly alot of early North American blues combos used an instrument much like the pan pipes. One example is an early Henry Thomas recording of "the Fishin' Blues" which features it prominently. Just one of those things that's disappeared over time.
How timely... last night I was invited to participate in a blues jam, and I expressed my reluctance to haul a bunch of gear, but promised I'd at least attend. With St. Patrick's Day celebrations in full swing here, I snatched a tin whistle out of the drawer and stuck it in my pocket before I left. I found out that you can play "cross whistle" just like you'd play cross-harp. The whistle was a "D" whistle, and when they'd play a blues in A, I'd jump in, causing the band members to laugh until tears rolled down their faces. Smile

-John

David Doggett · Posted 14 Mar 2008 3:41 pm

Wow, one argues with an Art Blakey with trepidation. But I'm the kind of guy who doesn't take anybody else's opinion automatically, even my heroes'. If jazz drumming doesn't derive from African drumming, then nothing else in jazz derives from Africa, which I can't buy. It is true that the middle class African-American community takes pride in jazz as their own creation, not merely a simple carrying forward of its precedents. But if nothing else, the whole prominence of drumming in all black American musical genres is an African thing. Drumming and rhythm never had such prominence in European folk and classical traditions. There has been plenty of evidence right here on the Forum of how some older country musicians resent drums.

Granted that Dixieland drumming clearly owed much to white marching band traditions, but blacks never played the rhythm the same straight, rigid way. The African drumming in Congo Square just north of the French Quarter in New Orleans is well known, as were the all night drumming, dance and voodoo soirees out on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain. Who would say that had no influence on early jazz. And there is still a clearly African drum and flute tradition in North Mississippi. And that tradition seems to have heavily influenced blues, boogie-woogie, and R&B drumming. And those genres influenced jazz away from the marching band Dixieland style toward the more African influenced later jazz genres of swing, bebop, cool, fusion, free jazz, etc. There are two incredible black jazz drummers who live down the street from me. They would just laugh if anyone said they had no African influences. One of them collects African rhythm instruments and African masks.

So, Art Blakey, great jazz musician - yes. Great musicologist - um, not so much. Confused

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I thought it was a pretty strange statement too. I'd always heard it told the way you did, David...
But, as you say, who wants to argue with Art Blakey ! ha.
-John

Steve Morley · From: Connecticut, USA

Interesting discussion. I've had the privilege to host a radio program here in Connecticut, USA from time to time, which explored the connections between northern Euro music, African musics and North America. Without getting long and windy, it's estimated there are 150+ musical styles in the African continent today (off topic, but there are probably that many in South America, too.), while we in North America have, what, 10 or 20? I had been trying to connect, specifically, Celtic music, from France, Spain, Ireland, Scotland and other parts of Great Britain, with "African" rhythms. As a previous poster mentioned, there is a recent connection between these areas in the form of the music that the Ulster Scots brought to their churches in the US, and the rhythmic work songs of the African slaves. Most of the Scots settled in land that looked like home, i.e. the Appalachian mountain states, while the slaves were settled in agricultural (flatter) areas - it took a while for one to influence each other, some think. There may be a much older connection, too: The Pict tribes from the steppes swooped down upon the Roman empire, got their butts kicked, and went on their way (over hundreds of years), possibly through northern Africa, then Spain, France, and finally the Irish and Scots regions. We're pretty sure that they left other influences in Africa, so why not a "music swap" at that time?

BTW, the bagpipes are thought to have originated in ancient Persia and migrated west, as people discovered this new way to recycle their pets (Every region in Europe has an indigenous form of them). Maybe the Picts brought this to Africa, the native people threw rocks at them to make the pain stop, and thus a new music was born - 1-4-5 diatonic/pentatonic jams with a "rockin'" rhythm . . .

Steve

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I found part of that Blakey quote:

"Jazz is American music. There's nothing like it anywhere on the planet. People are always trying to connect it to something else, to African music, to Latin music. It's not. It's American music.... Now, they say "Art Blakey, he's black. That makes him an African." I'm not. I'm an American, and this is American music."

-John the Scottish Canadian

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

If that's the extent of the statement then I'd say that it's a far cry from denying African musical roots. More like a ornery cuss refusing to be a poster child for someone's ethnomusicological thesis.
Denial of African roots would be like calling Country music purely American, free and clear of Scotch, Irish, English and....African roots.

David Doggett · Posted 28 Aug 2008 3:36 pm

I agree, Jon. I don't think Blakey is denying African roots to jazz. He's just saying it is not that simple. I have read and discussed this with a number of African-American jazz musicians. What they say is that jazz is a unique creation by African-Americans from African roots, European roots, and a lot of totally new African-American innovation. It's American. That's what they mean by saying there was nothing else like it anywhere on the planet. To pass jazz (or blues for that matter) off as a mere extension of African music is ridiculously simplistic, and really an insult to the massive innovation of African-Americans many generations (and a century or two) removed from Africa. They created something radically new and different, and their own. That's the phrase they all use, "It's our own."

Scott Shipley · From: The Ozark Mountains

Bill Monroe: the father of modern drumming? The drum patterns found in almost every form of modern music are based (at least in part) on the rhythm patterns found in The Bluegrass Boys band circa 1946.
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Don Drummer · From: West Virginia, USA

Why can't Art Blakey's statements be accepted at face value? He says in no uncertain term that jazz is American Music. Why is there the urge to re explain this simple statement from a figure who has lived the life? I don't care what middle class African Americans think or what anyone believes they think. Art Blakey was a musician who mentored hundreds of young American jazz musicians. I seriously doubt that he spent much time driving home the point of its' origin from distant lands and cultures. He did after all state unequivicly that Jazz is a truly unique and American Music. You don't have to agree but please don't try to put words into his mouth. Don D.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

If it is on PBS I can assure you there is some sort of liberal PBS slant to this. These guys are always trying to read into anything they do an interview on their own rewrite of history and whatever else they can do.

If you can find me a historic recording of Hooker playing some African bush music or some African bushmen playing a Howlin Wolk riff then I might be interested in this.

Same with Jazz. You got Wynton and all the other libs telling us that REAL jazz only is only understood and played by blacks and that the slaves were playing bebob or all the essentials thereof on the slave ships while they were being brought over here by the evil white man and they are the only ones who own certain kinds of music and this that and the other...
this is all crap.

I can't wait until PBS does one of these history rewrites on the origins of Rap/Hip-Hop. Most of the music that they sampled and looped was produced by white producers and recorded by white engineers and put out by record companies owned by whites so naturally then Hip-Hop belongs to and can only be understood by white people.

You know Hank Williams was influenced by that TeTot guy or whatever his name was, black street musician, so then Hank Williams real roots are African bush music and therefore the origins of modern country music are really in Africa.

Tbone Walker was a huge influence on Chuck Berry who was one of the original pioneers of rock and roll. Tbone was trying to be as cool as Nat Cole so then Nat Cole is really the father of rock and roll.

blah, blah,blah

You see how stupid all this is. To make all these hyphetical insinuations and present them on a liberal slanted agenda oriented radio station as some sort of fact should be totally far fetched to any rational thinking person.....and unrational ones too. Don't get caught up in all this.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Nothing nails down an argument quite like spittle flying.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Here's how I hear it:

It's obvious that certain rhythmic elements of jazz have their roots in African music. It's just as obvious that certain harmonic elements of jazz have their roots in European music. But there are also many elements that are uniquely American.

For example, the 12 bar progression, swing time (the quarter/eighth triplet), the use of b7 tones without resolution, the use of b3 as a scale tone in a major key - none of that came from Africa or Europe or anywhere else. And I'm just scratching the surface here. Most of the attributes that we categorize as jazz or blues are American in origin.
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John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I find it refreshing when someone offers an alternative viewpoint to the Hallmark/Ken Burns version of things. Willie the Lion Smith insisted that the blues didn't come from the Mississippi Delta... that it was born on the docks of New Jersey. Go Figure.
I wish I could find the whole quote, in which Blakey says something like "I hear more jazz in one British Army drummer than an entire corps of African drummers."
As far as a PBS or any Ken Burns presentation goes, none of the issues of origin really matter, as long as we all understand that we're all a bunch of racist homophobes. Wink

-John

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Here is a link to a PBS show.

http://www.pbs.org/theblues/classroom/defhistory.html

Funny, I see no reference at all to white blues artists or any other white involvment in the blues.

Hank Williams is just as powerful a blues singer to me as Howlin Wolf.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

This is a music forum, not a political forum. Mad

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

b0b. This is NOT political. I did not mention Obama or McCain, illegal immigration or the new Rep. female VP.

This is a discussion in regards to social ideals, the merits of PBS, some guys slant on the history of the blues music etc. FAR from political.
These should be fair topics that all should be able to express their own opinion on. If my comments are outside the rules of the Steel Forum then please feel free to delete them, but if they are just thought provoking then please allow others to share their views.

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

"gimme gimme gimme" is one of my all time favorite songs! Razz

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

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