Passive volume pedal question

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Is a single coil pickup more prone to tone loss with a passive pot pedal than a humbucking pickup?

I seem to be noticing this but, as a variant of the question---could it be that a single coil pickup has a tonal signature that makes tone loss more apparent?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Generally speaking, single coil pickups tend to have more "air" - frequencies in the 8k-20k range at the high end of human hearing. The roll-off effect of pot pedals affects the highs, not the lows, so it would make sense that you'd notice it more on single coil pickups.

I think that young people would notice it more than us old guys. I can barely hear the difference between a TrueTone (single coil) and a BL-712 (humbucking). I know it exists, but it's subtle to me even in headphones. The main difference I hear is the hum.
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I tend to agree with b0b. I've tried several humbuckers in my Mullen U-12. I also have a Hilton Digital Sustain. I don't notice much improvement in the tone of the humbuckers, using the Hilton, as I do with the stock single-coil pickup or with a True-Tone I used to have. Both the stock single-coil pickup and the True-Tone single-coil pickup sounded much better with the Hilton Digital Sustain.

I am now using a Lawrence 712 pickup, without the Hilton Digital Sustain, and as far as my old ears are concerned, it sounds like a single-coil pickup. This pickup actually works better without the Hilton Digital Sustain (to my ears and on my guitar).

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Those answers are pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I was wondering if there is any other stuff involved as well--impedance or whatever.
I've got Brad's FreeLoader buffer box and it also seems to have more affect on the single coils which may well be for exactly the same reason the pot pedal does. It is my ShoBud I'm talking about and I haven't been playing it much so I'm still involved in a lot of feeling out of its characteristics. I'm still trying to figure if the buffer basically compensates for the pot's tonal loss.
As it is, I'm not concerned. The supposed tonal loss does not concern me. I'm less concerned with the comparison of the guitar, with pedal and without pedal than I am with the sound of the guitar with the pedal once I have dialed the amp in.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I'm not sure how you missed the gist of my question---I thought it was reasaonably clearly asked and both b0b and Lee had no trouble getting it.
I'm not interested in 'can pot pedals sound good?' and I didn't ask anything even remotely like that.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

You're right. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question. Please rephrase it and explain to this stupid old man what you mean by...

TONE LOSS???

Loss? Would that have some sort of a negative connotation?

Losing what, exactly? Bass? Treble? Midrange?

Everything?

Well, as they say, everything is relative. If you lose treble but gain in fullness, is that a tone loss, or a gain? Only you can decide.

Generally, higher impedances (in pickups) and higher capacitances (in cables) lead to high frequency attenuation. And generally, humbuckers are higher impedanced than single coils.

But there are exceptions.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Jon was referring to the low-pass filter effect associated with pot pedals. High frequencies are attenuated as you lower the volume with the pedal. This is often referred to as "tone loss", because part of the tone is removed by the passive filter.

I think you're assuming a negative connotation that wasn't intended, Donny. The characteristic sound of a pot pedal, where tone changes slightly with volume, is appreciated by many of us, myself included. "Tone loss" accompanies "volume loss". It's a very musical effect that helps to move the instrument to the background at low volumes and to the foreground at high volumes. Some people like it, some don't.

The relationship between impedance and tone isn't as straight-forward as many would like to believe. "But there are exceptions" - you got that part right!
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Thank you for the explanation, Bobby. You know, I hear so much on the Forum about this "tone loss" and "tone sucking", I would think it's fairly obvious why I (or anyone else) might assume it's a negative characteristic for many steelers. Perhaps I'm wrong.

My point (with the player examples I gave) was to try and find out if most players nowadays detect a deficiency in the sound of all those famous players I listed. It stands to reason that if someone thinks pot pedals hurt the tone, or affect it in a negative manner, that players would find something lacking in all those old recordings. The strange part, to me, is that most players seem to envy the sounds produced long ago, and try to emulate them with modern equipment. (I did not mean to sidetrack the discussion or to try to start an argument bringing that point out.)

Getting back to the single-coil/pot pedal relationship, I think that the lower impedance pickups used years ago were affected less by the pot pedal. I realize that the frequency response vs. impedance equation is not a simple one, but if you took a modern single-coil pickup (most of which are wound fairly high, around 18k-22k) and removed half of the wire, the impedance would be lower, the output would be lower, the DC resistance would be lower, but the treble response would seem higher!

In other words, I feel the high impedance of modern single-coil pickups actually exacerbates the "tone loss" thing...and that seems exactly opposite of what Jon says he experiences.

That said, I'm done with this topic and will make no further comments.

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