6th string detuning issue (PROBLEM SOLVED)

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Hey guys,

I recently noticed a pretty bad detuning issue with my 6th string. Whenever I used the LKR (lowering e’s), my 6th string goes way sharp. Looked at the changer and underneath the guitar, nothing moves. So a “cabinet drop” issue? Never noticed it before so maybe the most recent string change is the culprit, but I’ve always used a 20 plain.

We’re talking about almost 9 cents upward when I lower my e’s. When I raise the E’s (LKL), the 6th string lowers about 3 cents. Now, 3 cents, I can live with that, but 9, that I can’t do!

Suggestions? Would switching to a 20 wound help? 22 plain? Could it be a bad string? I’m currently using a GHS nickel plated GB-E9 set. I think my previous sets were the same gauge but stainless steel, could that explain the difference?

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Sounds like the problem is new-ish? Anything happen with the guitar lately besides the string change?

Yes, 9-cents of raise on the 6th string is out of range; that's almost a 10th-of-a-fret. For reference, my guitars average around 4-cents of raise on a plain string and 2-cents on a wound 6th when hitting the E-lower lever (or any lever that lowers two strings). So, going to a wound string would help some, but wouldn't address the root cause if there's something extra in the mix.

Are the endplates screwed on tight? Is the cabinet cracked? Are the changer bolts tight? I'm at a loss here... but start by changing the 6th string with another of the same type. Maybe you'll get lucky.

If not, a wound string might help because a wound is actually far thinner than a plain string of the same gauge; it's the thin inner wire that is carrying the tension, not the windings that go around it. So, a wound 6th's inner wire looks to me like it's a similar gauge to, say, a plain 1st string. It takes more travel to alter the pitch of a thinner string, so with a wound, you'll have less detuning due to cabinet drop -- or cabinet raise in this situation.

In the end, you may have to 'tune around it.' I was creating a custom tuning chart for a student with a popular brand of student guitar and was surprised to see that it had a full 6 cents of 'cabinet raise' on the 6th string when using the E-lower lever. That's just the way that guitar is. Since most guitars have at least some raise, my charts address this by tuning the offset of the E-lower lever's note (D#) to match the offset of that cabinet-raised 6th sting, wherever it lands. This ensures the G#m chord is in tune when all that cabinet-raise is in effect on the 6th string.

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Thanks Tucker. I believe it is a newer problem. I mean, I like to think I would have noticed it before if it wasn’t! I’ll have a closer look at the endplates or the cabinet, but again, seems like something I would have noticed. I don’t believe anything happened to the guitar recently, aside from the string change. Could a lack of humidity and cold weather be the culprit? Only other thing I can think of.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

If you just changed strings. Check the alignment of string from changer finger to the key shaft. If there is a side bend in the string at the nut roller, Side pressure on the nut rollers can cause some strange things happen in lowers and raises.
Good Luck in search for and cure of problem.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

All the suggestions above are good, and remember to check all the screws, including the keyhead screws. Does the amount of raise increase if you push the lever against the stop? Then, do some detective work!

First, see if the problem is in the changer. Do this by pushing the E lowering fingers one at a time with a screwdriver and notice how much the 6th is raising. How does this compare with the raising you’re getting when using the lever?. Next, back off one of the E tuners completely, activate the lever, and notice how much the 6th raises. Then back off the other E tuner completely, activate the lever firmly against the stop, and see if the 6th is still raising. This will tell you if the lever stop is causing undue upward body deflection.

Report back on your findings. Shocked

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Does the amount of raise increase if you push the lever against the stop?

Yes, if I grab the lever with my hand and really push on it, I can get it to a full 18 cents of raising! But I do get 7 cents of raise before the lever even touches the stop. With the normal push of the leg, it’s about 12 cents.

Push the E lowering fingers one at a time with a screwdriver and notice how much the 6th is raising. How does this compare with the raising you’re getting when using the lever?

No raising at all, in fact it seems to lower the 6th string a tiny bit.

Next, back off one of the E tuners completely, activate the lever, and notice how much the 6th raises.

About 4-5 cents of raising on the 6th string

Then back off the other E tuner completely, activate the lever firmly against the stop, and see if the 6th is still raising. This will tell you if the lever stop is causing undue upward body deflection.

No raising unless I push really hard against the stop, then I can get it to raise about 3 cents.

Also, the string from the nut roller to the tuner is about as straight as can be.

Thanks guys, really appreciate it!

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

Is there some kind of rod / bellcrank / etc rubbing that causing the E lower action to inadvertently actuate a raise on the 6th string.

I guess you could eliminate this possibility by backing off all the tuning nuts on the 6th string, and repeating Donny's test steps.

If it goes away, you could look for rubs or maybe the 6th was overtuned, that can cause all kind of strange behaviors.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
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Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

I don't see anything move, either at the changer or underneath the guitar, that would indicate any rubbing and such, but I'll try your suggestion.

I also want to point out that although I posted the results of Donny's suggestions, I have NO IDEA how to interpret this data!

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

A few more questions.

What guitar is this? And is it a 12-string?

Do you see a similar raising of pitch on the 6th string if you lower, say, strings 2 and 9? Or strings 5 and 10 (if you have that change)? We're just looking to see if this problem happens any time you lower any 2 strings... or if it's really only a problem with the E-lowers. Some amount of raise on the 6th is normal, but yours seems out of range.

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

hi Tucker,

Guitar is a 10-string Fessenden.

The RKR (lower 2 and 9) yields even more raising on the 6th string, about 3-4 cents more than the LKR (lower 4 and 8 ).

Thanks!

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

OK, thanks for the update.

Donny sent you down a good order of "divide and conquer" troubleshooting to try to isolate the problem. I don't want to speak for him, but this is what I see:

Having you just push on the changer with a screwdriver simplified things by removing the knee lever and pull train from the equation. Result: you saw no pitch-raise on the 6th string when lowering string 4 or 8. Good. This outcome suggests the changer is not the thing introducing the problem.

The problem was halfway there when you lowered just one string with the knee lever -- and went away when removing both pulls from the lever. This shows that the knee lever's reversing mechanism itself isn't introducing a problem, at least when it's not trying to move any load... but the problem comes back when you tune it back up with the nylon nuts, putting tension on the rods, which puts that reversing mechanism under pressure. And the more pressure, the more raise you're seeing on that 6th string.

Replicating the problem with a different lever that also lowers 2 strings showed that the problem (an unwelcome raise on the 6th) is not specifically tied to just that E-lower lever. So it's something more systemic.

So, what does that leave? I think the most likely explanation is that, due to changes in humidity, the cross-shafts are not turning as freely as they should. I'm pretty sure this has come up before on the Forum with regard to Fessenden's and change of environment.

A cross-shaft that's a little stiff can add just enough extra tension on the knee lever bracket to cause some extra cabinet raise. This is due to the way the right-moving knee levers are mounted, being reversing mechanisms, where the forces are expressed upward against the top deck. Note that the annoying bit of raise action happens to all strings, but you notice it most on the plain 6th since it has the thickest core of any string on the guitar, so experiences the biggest pitch change.

To test this sticky cross-shaft theory, unscrew the nylon nuts from strings 4 and 8. Then grab the bellcranks so you have a 'handle' and move them back and forth. That cross-shaft should rotate really easily. And more to the point, there should also be some free play when wiggling the shaft between the front and back aprons!

If it's sticky, that's the problem. If memory serves, on a Fessenden, there's a silver metal strip along the back apron that pushes against the end of the shafts to hold them in place on that end and press them against the front apron. That plate may be on too tight given the current humidity. Try slightly loosening the screws on that strip to relieve some pressure on the cross-shafts and see what you have. Don't loosen too much -- that plate needs to be secure enough to keep the shafts in place.

But if you found that the cross-shafts do already rotate freely and have a little free play against the front and back aprons, try lubricating the reversing mechanism on the knee lever. In fact, you should do that regardless of anything discussed here; we need everything on that end of the pull train to move as freely as possible.

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Tucker, I think you are right on. I've had issues with that metal strip before in the winter time. In fact, Jerry suggested we file down the cross-shafts to solve the problem, but he had already put the guitar back together when we discussed it. I'm going to loosen a couple of the screws holding the metal strip when I get home and see if that helps.

Funny how I didn't think about the most obvious solution: an already known issue! I knew this strip could constrict the movement of the shafts, but it didn't occur to me that it could create some!

I will report on this soon. Infinitely grateful for the help!

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

Don’t know if this has been covered, but the brass bushings behind that chrome strip are oil impregnated. If you remove the strip, you can tap them in or out with a flathead screwdriver and hammer to get the right amount of play in each cross shaft. Then re-attach the strip and make sure not to tighten it too much.

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Thanks Brett! What do you think is the right amount of play?

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I just ran across this! I sent this to Bill Rudolph about my new Williams:
"The 2016 S-10 I have has metal bushings for the cross shaft ends, and it all fits tight and smooth…this new one has white Delrin bushings for the on the lever/pedal side, and they are slightly smaller than the holes in the wood they sit in, and the shafts are slightly smaller than the holes in the bushings, so there is some slight sideways slop in the lever/pedal action …."

His answer:
As far as the “play”/”slop” in everything, that’s normal...The minute we make something tight, there’s binding involved. The guitar will play just fine.
In fact, The nickname for all the play/slop in the Sho~Bud guitars was “Sho~Bud slop”.
Best,
Bill
_________________
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Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

Enough that the shaft spins freely without getting hung up, but not so much that it can scoot back and forth causing a different length pull. Probably about 1/8”

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

You say this is a recent development and Tucker mentions cross-shafts sticking, which reminds me that most cross-shafts on Jerry Fessenden's guitars that I have seen are over-long, enough so to bind if the screws holding the rear access strip against the ends are too tight. Back off the screws and loosen the trim strip enough to get af least 1/8" of slacker front to back on every cross-shaft. I then use red locktite to secure the screws in that position. Alternatively you can disassemble the guitar and grind the cross-shafts to the proper length. Don't know why this was not done when they were being built.

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

So, it turns out that those screws on the rear metal strip were already pretty loose! I’m still getting about 9 cents of raise on the 6th string when lowering 2 and 9 or 4 and 8. Gonna try looking at the reverse mechanism and lubricating it next time the guitar is upside down. And filing down those cross shafts as soon as I can do a complete tear down.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I've been following this. I haven't caught on to the theory of how the bound up or freely moving cross shafts may affect the 6th string issue you are having. I'm not doubting. Just not understanding.

As to Fessenden cross shafts, that chrome cover strip and its fit over improperly sized cross shafts is a big issue on my Fess. It got to where there was no point in putting the strip back on, it stood so far off the plane of the body, being pushed out by the protruding cross shaft ends.

BUT

That, alone doesn't free up binding cross shafts. If there is not some lateral play, you will need to force the embedded bushing outward in the apron. Forcing it inward to take out excess play is easy, tapping with a hammer and screwdriver. Getting an angle from inside the cabinet to force it outward requires some ingenuity.

If you find yourself in this situation, say something and I'll elaborate on how I've done it.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Thanks Tucker.
I need to get my Fess out of the back room and spend some time studying on this. I've seen passive string raising during string lowers before and I guess I always assumed that it was the result of reduction of string tension allowing the body to 'open up'. But having taken actual string pull out of the equation here in the methodical diagnostic tests....
I do need to run some experiments.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Right. On the same page.

Pedal steel guitars suck.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Alex, the tests you performed seem to indicate that the problem on the 6th string is coming from two places - the knee lever stop pushing up on the bottom of the guitar, and the changer axle moving or flexing. Oh Well

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

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