To Mic or not to Mic?

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I am torn between micing my amp or not. I am micing with an SM 57 and I run the mixer, which sits by my steel. The drummer and bass likes to hear it thorough their monitors, which is fine, and I could run a monitor mix only. I sit in with a different band twice a month. They have their own PA system and it is a small place, so I don't mic. The stage is small and my amp is about 4 feet behind me. I have had other steel players in the audience that said I need to be a little louder. But, if I play any louder, it would blow my head off and the lead guitar player would be on my case.

My regular band has a standing gig that uses some PA speakers that are permantently mounted and hang from the ceiling. The owner doesn't want any speaker stands because he is afraid a dancer might trip on them. So, we use all our PA stuff, but the house speakers. I don't like the fact that the speakers are so far away from the band. I don't like the delayed sound that may be existing between the speakers and my amp. I guess as fast as sound travels, this may not be a problem. I don't have any idea as to how the sound coming out of the speakers is compared to my amp sound. I don't like my steel amp sound going through the PA mixer and being changed there as well as the PA speakers, which are PA speakers, not steel amp speakers. I don't like the fact that the audience is hearing a hybrid sound between amp sound and PA sound.

I feel like I am in a catch 22 situation. Without the micing, I will have to play louder, blow my head off, probably have the fiddle player complaining that I am too loud, and still not know how loud I am in the overall mix out front.

I would just like to have some thoughts on all this. I guess I will just stick to the micing, which will probably keep the most people happy, even though the sound coming out to the audience may not be what I really want. I am going to have another band member sit at my steel Saturday night and listen to him hit the strings and hear the amp sound, then walk out in front of the speaker and see what is coming through it. Maybe this will give me some idea.

Jussi Huhtakangas · From: Helsinki, Finland

Mic it!! The biggest mistake steel players in club gigs nowadays do is to use their amp only, just because they have 400 watts. The point is not to make it louder necessarily but to spread the sound around the room. An amp only will project the sound to a certain direction and a lot of times the steel player places him/herself right on front of the amp where he/she can hear the amp loud and clear but 200 pounds of meat and bones on front of the amp is a pretty good volume block. Of course everything depends on the room and musicians themselves more than anything, but setting the PA eq flat and with an SM57 and just enough volume for the PA channel it'll be pretty tough to go wrong, and all of a sudden everyone in the room will hear you just fine. I really don't believe ( or at least I've never noticed ) that the PA speakers would change your sound at all, practically.

Marc Jenkins · From: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

I second that; mic it! Use your amp for stage sound, and let the PA do the work in getting your sound to the audience.

Terry Wood · From: Lebanon, MO

Hi George,

I am in agreement with the above, use the microphone. When people start wanting me to go directly in a board live or rather the system, I cringe. The reason is most sound men aren't sound men when it comes to the steel. They'll have you sounded like your in a basket with a towel wrapped around you. The objective is not to be so loud to blow the walls down but obtain your original sound, identity and as mention disperse it throughout the room. I'm certain players like Buddy Emmons would not consent to not using the microphone. Now when I reord, I do go direct into the board and I've found I like that but I use effects and all that jazz to beef up my sound. Another susggestion is an earphone to hear yourself better. Hope this helps!

May GOD bless!

Terry Wood

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I prefer not miking or going direct unless it's a large area. Playing with good stage balance requires that everyone learn this skill. In the old days, almost nothing was miked except for the vocals, and the result was that the drums and bass never got too loud. Nowadays, most everyone I hear with an "SOB" (soundman on board) has the bass and drums entirely too loud. Most bands have lost (or never had) the ability to manage their sound and dynamics, and a "sound man" is the root cause, in most cases. ("Oh, we just play whatever way we want, and the SOUND GUY will handle F.O.H. sound.")

For George to solve his problem, he needs only to keep his amp flat on the floor (not tilted or raised). Being low, it won't hammer the lead man's ear (or his), and the sound will go straight out to the audience.

When you've got lead, steel, bass, drums, rhythm, and the voices going through the same set of speakers, the result is a jumbled sound...more like a juke-box turned-up than a real live performance, IMHO. It also deprives the audience of the ability to hear what they want by sitting in a particular location.

Nothing (IMHO) is more stupid than having everything sound the same everywhere in the club. In that case, if someone in the audience doesn't like the sound, the only choice they have is to leave.

Is that what you want?

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

One thing i noticed right away when I became interested in pedal steel and started going to see other players...no one, not even the pros, play loud enough IMHO. Now maybe its that everyone else in the band is too loud, maybe its a volume pedal thing....but for whatever reason the steel is almost always the quietest instrument on stage. So um yeah...mic it and lets hear it in the mix.

Rick Campbell · From: Sneedville, TN, USA

I can't solve your micing problem, but if the fiddle player complains, slap him up the side of the head (with your bar). That usually works with me. I've got the scars to prove it.

Kenny Brown · From: Auburn, Alabama, USA

mic it for sure. my 112 sounds much better mic'd than direct.
_________________
Mullen RP SD-10, Hilton volume pedal, Peavey Nashville 112, George L's.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

No contest, ALWAYS mic it. If your amp has a GOOD DI, you could use that instead of a mic, but never go to a gig without an amp! I've had bass players try going DI and it just plain sucks. If I'm miced I turn my amp to my head and use it as my monitor. If I need to carry the room with the amp, I have it flat and turn it up. I then have someone I trust in the audience tell me if the levels are right and turn the cone towards where I need it to be loudest.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel

Joe Stoebenau · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Mic it...I play blues and love the sound of my 68 Fender Vibrolux with steel and guitar. But I have to mic it so I have a little headroom left over on the amp. It just sounds better.

I'm in agreement with Jussi in that micing it will fill the room better. Not to mention you don't have to play so loud. This way you have some headroom left over and you can actually use dynamics, that is if the lead geetar player isn't blasting away as he does in the band I play in.
Twayn also hit the nail on the head in that always use your amp and then go to the mix. Don't just go direct because no matter how good the sound guy says the monitors are, you'll never hear yourself by going direct only.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Back in the early 70s when bands knew how to adjust their volume and drummers played,not beat their drums the band i was with bought a new Shure Vocalmaster P.A.They had a great sound but would not knock the walls down.An article by shure came with it telling how to set the speakers.They recommended having the speakers on the right side of the band stand pointing to the left and tilted back so the sound hit the celing half way from the band stand and front of the club.And visa versa for the speakers on the left.This prevented the sound from being too loud to the ones sitting near the band stand and the sound bounced off the ceiling and the volume was about the same in back of the room.
And of course we set our amps on the floor.Back in thise days we liked to hear the singer.
And the singer had beter hear them self or you were gone.And we didn't have or need some one to mix the sound for us and we didn't need 40 monitors.
Look at some old pictures of Bob Wills and other big bands.
As Cuirly Chalker said,you spend a life time getting a good sound and it only takes a sound man a minute to screw it up.LOL.Curly was a wise man and uncomparable player.
But part of that i never agreed with as i heard Chalker play from the early 50s up until the day he had to quit and he always got that same great Chalker tone on any thing he played on.I believe that man could have got his same great tone on an electrified 2X4.
BTW.We hung mikes on the front of our amps and ran thru the P.A.
BAck in those days musicians worked off each other.In other words no one drowned any other out.

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Mic it.

Stuart Legg · Posted 18 Jun 2008 12:31 pm

It seems that most players mic. but I think there are times when they provide the amp and sometimes they want you not to use an amp. Sometimes they just can't get enough volume without you having to turn your amp up to loud.
Well anyway for what it's worth here is an idea.
Here is one of Bo’s set ups he likes a lot because it’s quick and trouble free and requires very little adjustment. He calls it the poor mans concert gear.
He has 2 stops on the match box volume knob, one for fill and one for lead. (pedal is mashed to the bottom on fill and lead)
He has 2 low outs from the processor, one to the board of which the volume is not changed at the processor once set (the tone may be tweaked to compensate for the crappy tone from the board) and one to the ear monitor which volume can be adjust as needed to add to what comes in from the monitor.
The sound man loves it because he does not constantly have to adjust your volume up and down all the time.
It is usually the tone that comes from the board that’s crappy for the Steel. That’s because it’s EQed for the vocals and I think that’s opposite to what the Steel requires.
If the tone is so bad out front sometimes you just have them lower or take the Steel out of your monitor and just use the processor signal that is sent to your Ear Monitor. Then at least you think you sound good.
Since your stationary at the steel you don’t need an expensive wireless ear monitor and you don’t have to worry about interference and if you put the wires behind you and come up to the ears from the neck you can hardly notice that you have ear buddies on. Ear Monitor and ear buddies around $70.
I forgot to mention he plugs everything into a power conditioner and takes out any ground loops.

LOOK MA NO AMP!

David Doggett · Posted 18 Jun 2008 12:43 pm **Re: To Mic or not to Mic?**

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

You definitely need to mic.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I was at a fairly large dance hall in Texas during the convention last March and the band had nothing mic'ed except for the vocals. I was really surprised at that, taking into account the big room. It actually didn't sound too bad, but it would have sounded way better if everything was coming from the one source: the P.A. speakers. Mic'ing instruments is not about being louder. It's about uniform sound out front. The amps on stage should be monitors for the band. The P.A. should override the stage volume. When you have a mish-mash of sound coming off the stage, it creates a mish-mash in the room. Additionally, you'll go deaf pretty quick with all the amps up high enough to fill a big room. I wouldn't wanna sit next to a Session 400 that's on 6-7 all night.

Drums are somewhat the cause for having to use P.A. for everything. You need to be at a certain level to compete, no matter how dynamic the drummer is.

I can't remember the last time I played a gig without mic'ing my amp, and some of the gigs I've done have been in smaller venues. It's par for the course in my neck of the woods.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

David Doggett · Posted 19 Jun 2008 10:54 am

Still can't agree, Jeff. While the FOH mix may be highly manipulated, it is still the closest thing there is to what the audience hears. Anything that can't be heard there is basically irrelevant to the listeners. I prefer to play to the main mix. Of course there are times when all of us just play for the fun of it and what we can get out of it for ourselves.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

Sorry David, I disagree as well. I don't need to hear exactly what the audience hears, even if that were possible. I need to hear what I consider to be the best mix that helps me do my job and to hear all the musical components clearly. The FOH might, for example, be mixed to be drum-heavy in order to get a crowd going. I don't need that in my ears.

My opinion, BTW, is predicated on the entire band being mic'ed or going direct. Also, that there is a FOH person actively involved running the mix. (Which over 95% of my gigs are.) In clubs or situations where not everything goes through the board, or where only vocals are in the PA, one obviously must adapt. But as I think back on it, I can honestly say that in over 30 years of stage shows, theaters, and national tours indoors and out I can probably count on one hand the number of times we didn't have individual monitor mixes available.

David Doggett · Posted 19 Jun 2008 12:32 pm

Jeff, maybe you are right for good PA systems with a good soundman who knows what the band wants to sound like. Unfortunately, most of my experience is with minimal systems and soundmen who are not very competent or attentive, and who don't have a clue what the band wants to sound like. In that situation, we have to hear what is going out and be able to signal appropriate changes.

George's situation sounds more like what I encounter, and he specifically wanted a way to hear what he sounds like out front.

Apples and oranges.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

For me - when in doubt, mic it or give them a line out (gotta watch out for ground loops with the line out - get an Ebtech HumX). The only time I would not want sound reinforcement is if the room is so small and quiet that I already overpower it, and I try to choose amps so that doesn't happen. It is much easier to pull something out of the mix than to add it to the mix when it's not mic'd. I also agree with Jussi - the issue is sound spread. A competent front-of-house engineer with a remotely adequate system is better than everything coming straight off the backline, except in special situations, to my tastes. But even if the FOH system isn't so great, it can keep me from having to get ridiculous with the volume to get it out front.

What I like to hear in a monitor mix depends completely on what that sounds like. Most of the time, I mainly want to hear a reasonable but slightly bass-tilted blend of the bass, snare, acoustic guitar, and lead vocal. If it's blaringly loud, I generally tell them to turn it way down or get it away from me. I almost never need myself in the monitors - I'm usually the only one who wants to really hear it, and it's a rare day when I can't anymore.

If necessary on a loud gig with good front-of-house support where I'm gonna have to push pretty hard to hear myself, I sometimes put my amp in front of me and tilt it at me and away from the lead singer. Something about a lot of singers and steel guitar - they want the steel out there on fills, but don't want to hear it much at all. "In the moment", I think bent string figures sometimes throw them off, and chromatic fills drive 'em nuts. I try to oblige - that is, I play 'em, but I try to keep them out of range.

For me, there's no absolute answer to this kind of stuff. Every situation is a bit different. YMMV, of course.

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I may have changed my mind on EQ'ing amps on the PA board. I have, and perhaps wrongly, assumed that you have to EQ an amp miced for the room, just like you do vocals. However, this post has got me thinking, that may not be the case. I have always thought of miking an amp just like micing the voice. If you set the EQ flat for a singer, it will sound horrible, so you EQ to taste in the room that you are working. I always just assumed that you did the same thing with an amp that was miced. HOWEVER, I now realize that you have EQ control on an amp, but not on a vocalist voice. So, I have been EQ'ing twice, once on the amp and then again on the board, and probably unknowling changing the sound of my amp out front through the PA system. So, tomorrow night, I am going to experiment. Set my amp the way I want it, then set the EQ on the board FLAT and see what happens.

The flat EQ is not to supposed to boost or cut any sound coming out of the board. so, using the same logic, one would think that vocalists would want the board EQ set flat, since they don't want their voice sound changed in any way. We all know this is not the case. If you want a singer to hate the way they sound in the PA, just EQ flat. You even have to EQ different for different singers, since all voices are not the same, and even the singers ears are different in what they want to sound like.

I can't believe that I have been making the mistake of EQ'ing amps in the PA board and still I am not 100% convinced that you can get by with just flat EQ, but I have an open mind and will give it a whirl and see what happens tomorrow night.

Thanks for all who put in their two cents. I have read every post with great interest. I am always open to suggestions for doing things better and the forum is just a goldmine of knowledable people who are always willing to help out.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yeah, George - that's an important point. I agree that one shouldn't necessarily EQ an instrument just like a voice. I prefer as flat an EQ as possible. There are sometimes strong acoustic resonances in the room, so some adjustments may be required to equalize. To me, that's the main point of EQ, to equalize so that it sounds as close to a natural sound as possible.

Of course, it is often reasonable to make adjustments to that natural sound - but that implies some issue with the natural sound - for example, a singer booms or sounds shrill at a particular set of frequencies using a given mic. Even then, extreme EQ usually doesn't generally sound very good, to me. With an electric instrument - if it sounds good coming out of the amp, I just want it to sound as much as possible like that out front.

Usually, there is a mains EQ devoted to dealing with the room resonances. If that's been handled well, then the only instrument EQ needed, in principle, is that to invert any frequency response change made in micing the amp. But of course, the ears should be the final judge. If it sounds good, it is good. On guitar, I have often walked around the room with a wireless during soundcheck to get a feel for this. Kinda hard with a pedal steel - most often, I think we have to rely on someone else's ears.

Ted Solesky · From: Mineral Wells, Texas, USA

Donny, I'm confused? When I set my amp shooting straight, I catch abrasive complaints about my volume. They ask me to tilted my amp upward to move the sound away from them. We have a super loud geetar player and I know, I usually hurt his head with my amp volume. The upward position helps where the drummer and keys don't complain. I have to mic my amp. I have no choice with everyone blasting. But, thank goodness I have a fine amp that'll keep up with the crowd. I prefer lower volume for a more professional sound.

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