Another HILTON question please?

David Hartley · Posted 24 Apr 2008 12:36 pm

I have two rains guitars here, and 2 HILTONS, (mine and Keiths).. Tonight we have dicovered that there is a little bit of distortion (grumble) when the HILTONS are sitting dormant for a while and then you play very quietly... If you then use the pedal to its limit and back off again, this seems to go away? It does come back after a while again if used very quietly again.. Is this a HILTON characteristic or do we need to adjust something underneath? Anyone had this before..
Are we overloading the signal into the pedal by over picking to hard or something?

David Hartley

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

David, thanks for using my pedals. For years I set the output of my pedals with my ears. I recently set up a sine wave generator that outputs 100 mili-volts.
I no longer depend on my ears. I set the output of each pedal, when wide open, at 100 mili-volts. Meaning the pedal puts out exactly what is put into it. The input of the pedal has a pre-amp, and I set that gain. I used to use 24 volt supplies, but have went to 12 volt supplies. This has caused me to have to set the gain different, because of the supply rails. With a 12 volt supply, you can't exceed 12 volts output on the pre-amp or it bumps up against the head room and there is distortion. For example: If your pre amp had a gain of 6 and you fed it a 2.3 volt signal, your output would be 13.8 volts. This is 1.8 volts over the head room of 12 volts. Pickups are getting hotter and hotter and putting out more voltage. On high surges I think you could see 2 to 3 volts out of some of these pickups.
If you get distortion and you think it is my pedal here is what to do: First make sure you don't have too much stuff in line creating a bunch of gain. You can turn the output gain of my pedal down with the control marked "Volume". Turning this output gain control down will not cause any loss of tone quality or frequency. If you do this and you still get distortion, it may be I have to lower the pre amp gain. In the last few months I have lowered the pre amp input gain to one on the pedal circuit. It is possible I might have to do that on your pedal. Here is another problem musicians need to be aware of: Many of these battery powered effects run off of a 9 volt battery. The rails on a 9 volt power supply is 9 volts. If one of these devices is in a signal chain and fed more than 9 volts, it bumps against the head room and will distort. With all the figures I have given you, I have stated the perfect situation. Actually a 12 volt power supply will have around 11.5 volts to work with, by the time it gets past the protection devices. Likewise a 9 volt batter will have somewhere around 8.5 volts. If you can't solve the distortion problem I will help you. With these pickups getting hotter I am having to lower the gain on the pre amp stage. Hope this information helps.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

If it's a gain issue as Keith says, using something like a Steeldriver II in front of the Hilton would give you control over the amount of signal hitting the pedal.

I have been through a couple dozen steel pickups of various types in the last few years, and the output is all over the map, and as Keith sys they seem to be getting hotter (which is a very counter-productive thing when you're looking for a warm, round tone like I am). I can't play a "modern" guitar without the Steeldriver (or some other "impedance matcher" - essentially a kind of gain control as far as practical application goes) right after the guitar's output jack - hotter pickups overdrive (and distort) the heck out of many effects pedals, and I don't doubt they would do the same thing to Keith's volume pedal if it's gain-dependent.

Keith - what about adding a pot (I know, it's sort of a weird thought on a potless pedal...) to make the pickup input signal variable? That would allow the player to use the volume control as a variable gain control (like the impedance matching units) as well? Then you both solve the problem and give the player additional control on the same unit.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Jim, all your ideas are sound and good, except one. If I am not mistaken, the Steel Driver II, and Matchbox produce some gain, even in their lowest setting. I know my Digital Sustain creates some gain in it's lowest setting. You could put a gain control on the output of these devices and that would work, if the input was not over driven. All these devices were designed to be used with a pot pedal. So, using them with an active pedal is redundant. Your idea of having a gain control on the input of a active pedal might work with a special design. I am afraid a simple voltage divider pot control on the input would lower the input impedance. When you do this, you suck high end frequency from a pickup. The input impedance on my pedal is 1 million ohms. I would not want it to be less. The solution is what I am doing now. I set the gain on the input to "one". If you multiply one by anything, you still get "one". This means you get out just what you put in. AND--YES--a voltage gain control could be put after the pre-amp stage, but I don't think it would be needed. Usually a 2 volt pickup signal will not distort down stream equipment, unless too much stuff with too much gain is added down stream. Of course, you should never plug a powered signal into the high impedance input of an amp. A powered signal needs to be put in the low impedance input of an amp. You can't tell that to most musicians, because a guy reads "HIGH" and they think that is better than "LOW". My pedal already has 3 controls. I could put 8 controls on the pedal, and each control would do something useful. The problem is no one will read instructions, so 3 controls is really 2 more than most guys need. Jim, I am starting to produce my STOCK pedals with only one control, the OFF POINT control. All other controls are fixed and set at the factory, and should work in all reasonable conditions. If a person wants a tone control, or the output signal strength control, it will cost extra. These controls will no longer be standard. I am doing this in lue of a price increase.
I am also doing it to make the pedal more user friendly. 90% of the people who use my pedal leave the tone control and volume control all the way open anyway. So removing them is a no-brainer. Jim, the solution to any distortion problem is understanding equipment in the signal chain, between the guitar and the amp input. I would say 99% of guys understand very little about the electronics going on between their guitar and the input of their amp. Learning just a little would help them a great deal. Someone should write a simple small booklet on this, as it would help a bunch of people.

Mike Shefrin · Posted 25 Apr 2008 9:00 am

Keith White · From: Norfolk, UK

Thanks for the imfo on this keith if dave hasnt seen it yet i will be talking to him in an hour or two,and will try a small ajustment.A superb product im well pleased with it. Very Happy

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Sho-Bud 'LDG', Sho-Bud 'The Professional', Rains SD10, Fessenden D10, Hilton Pedal, Peavey Session 500, Peavey 112, Lots of PV PA, And of course, the BJS Bar (for the best tone)! Love all Steel Guitars!

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Yes, turn down the "Volume" control. This does not cut the quality of the sound, just the output signal strength. If that fails to eliminate all distortion, e-mail me and I will help you with your problem.

Louis Vallee · From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

I also experience distortion with my new Hilton pedal where the other is totally clean.

I believe that Keith has diagnosed the problem and the input to the pedal is overloaded. Turning down the volume control will have no bearing as in my case.

Hopefully there is a fix for this and I already emailed Keith who has been most helpful in the past to get the issue resolved.
_________________
Mark T

Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I have Lawrence 710 pickups on my Franklin. Running the guitar directly to the Hilton Volume pedal does not cause any distortion.

I have one of the older model Hilton's and now using the newer model with the detachable power supply. Neither the old model or the new model is overdriven by the hot Lawrence 710 pickups.

However, if the Lawrence pickups are too close to the strings it can cause distortion. This is not a fault of any electronics that is after the guitar, it's because the pickups are not set correctly.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I use a Goodrich "Match Box" in front of my Hilton pedal and experience NO problem what so ever. Very Happy

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Every guitar and each setup is a little different. I have always tried to set each pedal with good response. In doing that, I could have tried too hard and got a few pedals too hot lately. As I said earlier, I recently made the decision to set the pre-amp gain at one. Because, one times one equals one. Meaning you get out exactly what you put in. The input of the pedal can still be over the 12 volt rails if fed enough signal from things creating gain. Most of these hot pickups will put out 2 volts or a little more. If you put anything else in front of the pedal, it multiplies that output voltage by 2 volts.
Again, I may of lately made a few pedals too hot, because I was trying too hard. E-mail me and I will fix the problem for you.

Mike Shefrin · Posted 26 Apr 2008 12:39 pm

I contacted Keith by email and he assured me he would fix the problem with my pedal's distortion if I mailed him the pedal. I did so and got it back shortly after, and it works perfect now with no distortion. The Hilton pedal is by far the best pedal I've owned. It sounds great, and there's no need for me to ever replace a cord or pot anymore. Apart from being an electronics wiz, Keith is also a gentleman and a great guy to deal with.
Mike

Bill Stroud · From: Dresden, Tennessee, USA * R.I.P.

I have this problem with the Detached wall wart pedal (new ones), but the attached wall wart pedal (old Style) no problem with distortion.
Keith could the newer type wall wart have anything to do with it?
Bill

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

No, Bill, I probably tried too hard to set it up perfect and set a few too hot. Send it to me and I will lower the gain on the pre-am, that is what the problem is.

Charlie Powell · From: Kingsport, Tennessee, USA

I had a new style Hilton that compared to my older style Hilton had a bit of white noise. I sent it to Keith and he replaced it in short order. This one sounds great. Any electronic product line can have one with a deficiency from time to time, but having customer service like this makes it no problem at all.

Thanks Keith.
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Charlie Powell

Allan Thompson · From: Scotland.

Keith,
I bought one of your newer pedals from Fred Justice at the Dallas show this year and also find some distortion on this pedal. I have one of the older ones and it is fine. Is there any way to fix the pedal over here as shipping to the states is a bit of a hassle ?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Anyone with a problem with their Hilton Pedal needs to contact me and I will help them.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Here are the Nashville 400 specs:

nominal input level is 40mV RMS
max input level is 2.5v RMS

Anything over 2.5 volts RMS (root mean square, .707 of the peak signal) will drive the amp to full power. Readings based on the following settings:

Pre gain at 5
Post gain at 10
Low eq at +6db
Mid eq at -3db
Shift at 300 hz
High EQ at +3db
Presence at +6db

Also remember the volume control is after the first op-amp. The signal hits the op-amp first, therefore you can distort the first gain stage regardless of where the volume control is at with too large a signal!!

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Ken, how are you feeling after being hit with the shock? About 3 months ago I was in the hospital with a bleeding colon, so I know what is like to be scared with helh issues. Do you have any residual problems after recovering from the jolt? Your presentation on the Nashville 400 specs. is great. Ken, many guitars, like the Les Paul and some others that have pre-amps in the guitar can output 3 plus volts. Pretty easy to see the user needs to use common sense and turn down gain controls. Besides distortion, there can be white noise if the signal gets too much gain, even before it hits the input of an amp. I have noticed one thing, my Fender tube amp will not accept as much input without distorting. I always wondered how Ralph Mooney got those sounds, that sounded almost like a 22 rifle going off with each string picked. Plug in a Pro FexII to the input of your Fender Tub Amp, and start increasing the output of the Pro FexII to almost the point of distortion. The only steel player I've seen with the guts to play with this high strung sound is Ralph Mooney. It is a no holds bared sound that takes guts to use. I guarantee you can cut through guitar players using Telecasters and Les Paul guitars by over driving the input of a Fender amp.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Doing great now Keith. I just have to be more careful and of course loose some weight to keep heart ussues in check!

I love to push a Fender amp with a Profex 2!! What a tone, none better. The Blackface and Silverface amps have weak pre-amps and need the extra kick!! Stevie Ray Vaughn used two Tube Screamer in series to boost his amps.

Still for a clean sound with today steels and pedals it is easy to overdrive a lot of amps. I try to tell folks to use input #2 but they do not like to so it!

Well, that is the right choice if you are overdriving the input. It offers usually about -6db of additional pad to the input signal.. that make the difference in a distorted amp or a clean one!!

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