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Topic: C6 Knees – Add Middle levers or use existing? |
Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 8:28 am |
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Wondering about pros/cons of this, are there others besides the below
Middle knees pros
-better access for pedal/knee combinations
-lighter pulls and more flexibility
Middle knees cons
-more cost than adding a pullrod and bellcrank to existing
-more weight
Combine on existing levers pros
-don’t have to reposition left leg
-less weight
-less cost
Combine on existing levers cons
-long reach for some pedal/knee combinations
-harder pulls and less flexibility (likely have to combine raises one neck with lowers on other for a single lever)
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Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 8:39 am
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| Scott, how many levers are we talking about total? One of my guitars has middle levers, but still utilizes changes on the right knee. Another guitar has only 4 knees but both right knees operate both necks. If it were just two changes on the C6 neck, I would say go with the existing hardware. |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 9:06 am
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To clarify I am exploring the standard 8+5 setup versus expanding it to 8+7 or 8+8 (add a second vertical), with the new levers being all in the middle.
Either way at least four levers that are operable for C6.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 9:37 am
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It depends also on how much you want a lever to do. If you are pulling only 1 string up or down a half step on the C neck it might not be a problem to have them combined with the E neck levers. Higher plain strings take less tension to pull than the low strings. I have extra middle levers for my C6 set up but just ordered a steel for a friend that should work without them and not lose any of the changes that he wants. I tend to try to keep the function of my levers as simple as possible so I have the middle ones.
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Bob |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 9:46 am
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Each way has advantages and disadvantages. I have had discrete left-leg levers for each neck for over 30 years. It makes the steel far more comfortable to play, and only adds a pound or so to the weight. Losing one or two possible changes (the downside) is not significant for me, since I'm not that great a player, anyway.
YMMV |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 9:50 am
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| you just about have to reposition your left leg for comfortable c6 pedal access...so it's not really practical to consider your left knee e9 levers for c6. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 10:26 am
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On my MSA Legend I have 8 knee levers. 6 of them work on the C6 neck. The E9th LKV is easily accessible when playing C6th and it raises the low C6 E string a half tone to F in addition to lowering the E9th 6 string a full tone G# to F#. Since the other C6 knees are LKV and LKR, nothing obstructs my access to the E9th vertical knee lever. The compact body of some modern guitars makes this quite possible. This saved me having to add a C6th LKL that would require folding up to go back to the E9th neck. I switch necks all the time during a song! My online copedant is a little out of date but I should it updated soon.
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Msa/Copedant.html
Greg
Last edited by Greg Cutshaw on 26 Jun 2008 10:29 am; edited 2 times in total |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 10:37 am
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| i use 9 floor pedals,and my 4th pedal always works on both necks.....most steels these days will let you use any floor pedal for any neck. |
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Wally Davis
From:
Belleville, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 1:01 pm
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| Want to borrow one of mine for a bit with the middle knees and compare it to yours? I have the old one with 8 and 8 and the newer one with 9 and 10. The old one with 2 and the newer one with 3 middle knees. I'm only using the newest one at the moment. Pretty awkward using the E9th knees as in the positionment trying to get to the C6th pedals. Hopefully see you tomorrow night. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 1:10 pm
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If you are really serious about playing the C6th neck, you need a middle set of levers for that neck.
It would be next to impossible to play the C6th pedals with your leg positioned under the E9th levers.
In fact, I learned something from watching Herby Wallace play. He had a set of right knee levers for the C6th neck that he would pull down when playing that neck.
The only builder who has this system beat is Ed Fulawka.
He has a couple of crossover knobs that you can pull out or push in to activate the right knee levers for whichever neck you happen to be playing.
You can maybe see them in this picture.
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Wally Davis
From:
Belleville, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 2:33 pm
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| I think that it is possible to use the 8 and 5 setup for both. Although I jump from time to time in the heat of battle, it's just briefly and really uncomfortable. If I remember correctly Erv, I saw Johnny Cox do this with a for sale MSA the convention in St. Louis in the tribute for Hal Rugg. But then again, that's Johnny Cox. Maybe he'll see this post and chime in. |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 9:35 pm
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Wally, I will get with you Friday evening.
I don't think anyone posted disadvantages of middle kness that I hadn't thought of, so I am leaning that way.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 27 Jun 2008 1:33 am
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Just keep in mind that we are supposed to play using as little physical energy as possible. Having three MID knee levers directly over C6 Peds 1,2 and 3 is quite efficient I would say for your left knee and left foot.
Think of the comfort of the E9th A Ped and the F ( E raise) lever as a natural movement. There is really no right or wrong but rather "does it work for you".
Adding 3 knee levers to a D10 is probably an insignificant issue in the weight dept. |
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John McGlothlin
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Posted 27 Jun 2008 6:57 am
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| I have one of the older MSA Classic D-10s with the standard 8 and 4 on it. Over the years I have found myself on the C6th tuning most of the time or at least wanting to be there because I truly love the C6th sound better than E9th. I am considering converting some of the E9th pulls over to the C6th neck I then will probably just use the E9th neck as a non pedal tuned to a different key. |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 27 Jun 2008 9:39 am
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Here's another question on middle knee levers for C6...
What changes work best for a middle vertical knee?
Its much easier to use a vertical with one or more pedals engaged (for me anyway), so what changes are good keeping that in mind? The G to F on 6th string is popular, but I am not sure how that change is used in practice.
One that seems promising on paper is take the "reverse P6" change and seperate it into a pedal and lever like this.
| Tab: |
_____________MLKL___MLKV__MLKR___P4____P5_____P6____P7_____P8_____RKL____RKR____
1__E__.014_________________________________________+F___________________________________
2__D__.016__________+D#_________________________________________________________________
3__C__.018______________________________________________++D_____________-B________+C#__
4__A__.020____-Ab___________+Bb_________________________++B_____________________________
5__G__.024_________________________________-F#____________________________________________
6__E__.030___________________________+F___________-Eb_____________________________________
7__D__.034_______________________________________________________-C#______________________
8__C__.038___________¬____________________________________________-B_______________________
9__A__.044__________________+Bb__________________________________________________________
10_F__.056_________________________________+F#___________________-E_______________________
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Sorry about the tab not lining up , I tried about 10 different things to get it to work, it used to work on this computer.
Anyway, this works out nicely with the fact that I already have E9 changes on P4 and have to be careful about loading it up too much.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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