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Topic: 100K Pot for Tone? |
Tobie Schalkwyk
From:
South Africa
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Posted 10 Jun 2008 5:50 am |
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I've decided to replace the pot's on my lapsteel to try and get rid of some noice & fix volume problems. The volume pot is a 500K Ohms pot which seems easy to find, but the tone control is a 100K pot which seems quite difficult to get hold of.
What will the effect be if I use a 250K / 500K pot instead on the tone control?
Thanks in advance for any advice / comments... |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2008 6:34 am
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It'll have a different "speed" rolling off highs and you might gain just a little treble when it's wide open.
Tone controls in passive systems (without powered electronics in the guitar) are "subtractive" - they don't "add" treble or bass - they remove some treble response as you turn them down.
Usually the higher the DC resistance of the pickup, the higher the pot resistance - on 6-strings 259k pots are normally used with single coils, 500k with humbuckers; average DC resistance of singles is 6-7..5k, humbuckers are 7k-10k or so. But there's no real "rule" - Fender used 1 meg pots in many of their their cable pull steels with pickups in the 5.7-8k range!
In other words - it won't hurt anything. You'll change the tonal range more by varying cap value than you will with the pot; a larger-value cap will roll off more treble (if high enough, to the point of uselessness).
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Tobie Schalkwyk
From:
South Africa
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Posted 10 Jun 2008 8:05 am
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Jim, if I understand you correctly I'll thus simply use part of the Tone Control's full range, after which it becomes 'silly' to adjust any further. That's OK with me, as I hardly ever fiddle with any of the controls on the guitar. I rather use my (much more potent) mixer / pre-amp(s) for that.
In fact if I knew how, I would have bypassed the guitar's pots, fixed the Volume on Max & Treble on 'sharp' and just let it be. Any advice regarding that would be most welcome.
Thanks for your reply. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 10 Jun 2008 11:46 am
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| On some pedal steel guitars (my Franklin is one) there are no tone or volume controls on them. The pickup is connected directly to the output jack. Any "tone" is adjusted at the amplifier and most (all that I know of) use a volume pedal so the volume is adjusted there. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2008 3:10 pm
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Most modern steels do not have tone or volume controls, which I think is (for me, anyway) a real mistake.
The guitar-mounted circuit performs and sounds different than a floor volume pedal and/or amp controls; the combination of controls, the pots used and the capacitor(s) in the circuit allow you a range of control over your sound that is not possible with a pedal or amp.
I know 6-stringers who never touch their guitars' controls; I know others, like myself, who "massage" the tone/volume (as the volume control affects tone as well) controls regularly for different songs, or DURING songs, or to drive an amp harder, or to soften the touch a bit. When I play me Fender steels I do exactly the same thing, and the one difficulty I have with my GFI Ultra (the ONLY difficulty!) is the lack of controls. I have not found a workable solution yet (some have added controls, but under the guitar - I need them where I can reach them while playing.
The SteelDriver II I use comes close, but controls are placed very awkwardly (an input jack placed between potentiometers makes them useless while playing, and IMO the controls are positioned oddly - tone/volume for the buffered side should be on top, and the "fuzz" controls on the bottom, with the jacks on the side...that layout would be far more usable than each sections' controls on the top and bottom, with a jack between them making them difficult to use).
If you bypass your controls - which is very easy to do, as you simply take the pickup wires and attach them to the output jack - you may not like the sound...or OTOH you may love it. It WILL have more treble, possibly a hotter output...and depending on the pickup design that can be a good or bad thing.
But I should have asked at the start - what noise and volume problems are you having, and on what kind of lapsteel? Scratchy pots can be replaced or sometimes rejuvenated...and on a VINTAGE lapsteel you DO NOT want to replace them unless absolutely necessary - unlike most pedal steels, lapsteels have some collector value depending on the type, and replacing controls can devalue them.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Tobie Schalkwyk
From:
South Africa
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Posted 10 Jun 2008 9:48 pm
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Jim, it's 3-legged and has a 'Guya Musical Instruments' label. Two pickups, a set of two slide-switches to 'Soft' (presumably one for each pickup) and the Volume & Tone controls.
It looks exactly like this: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=112243&highlight=guyatone
I have no idea how old it is - bought it from a widow who's husby used to play in a church band.
When adjusting the Tone, one can clearly hear a scratchy (almost static) noise. The same when playing loud / moving the bar horisontally over the strings. So much so that the sound looses its musical qualities.
The idea is to keep the knobs, just replace the pots (specially now that you've made a few good points re. bypassing them). So, it's a definite improvement and probably long overdue. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2008 9:42 am
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You might try Caig Deoxit followed by Pro Gold n the pots - sometimes that will take care of the carbon deposits and recondition them. If that didn't work I'd replace the tone with a 250k pot - you probably won't notice any tonal difference and that's not a vintage piece that will be devalued much by a pot replacement.
BTW - most players make the mistake of leaving both guitar AND amp controls at whatever setting they were using when they are done playing. Pots should ALWAYS be "zeroed" when not in use - leaving them in any other position than zero (or full-on)can leave a small carbon deposit...that's what eventually causes the scratchiness.
Also (this has been repeated several times) NEVER use contact cleaner on pots - always use a contact cleaner/lubricant, or cleaner FOLLOWED by a pot lube or conditioner. Pots have to have special lubrication, and contact cleaner removes it - you can destroy a pot in minutes that way.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2008 9:35 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| the one difficulty I have with my GFI Ultra (the ONLY difficulty!) is the lack of controls. I have not found a workable solution yet (some have added controls, but under the guitar - I need them where I can reach them while playing. |
Jim, I haven't seen a GFI single-width body (mine is an SD-10), but is there room to put any control(s) on the back area of the changer-end end plate? (I know there's no room in the changer area.) The tone control on my Sho-Bud Super Pro is on the endplate, along with the bypass switch (and neck selector), and while of course this can't be used for pinky-finger wah effects, it's fairly accessible for making tone adjustments while playing, and on the Super Pro it's closer to the front of a double-width body (thanks to the depth of the end plate it's actually below the changer rather than beside it)--a more rearward mounting would make it even more accessible. |
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Tobie Schalkwyk
From:
South Africa
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Posted 11 Jun 2008 11:12 pm
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Thanks for the tips on leaving the pots 'zeroed' when not in use, Jim. It makes sense, but I would never have thought of that myself! I've got a 500K and 250K on its way - hopefully I can have a nice sounding lapsteel in a week!
I'll never dream of doing maintenance on these cheap components - life's simply too short!  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2008 8:01 am
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Brint - no, unfortunately there's just enough room to NOT squeeze a stacked pot in there!
Last night I thought of the solution - not perfect, but close: A small metal enclosure with pots on top that plugs straight into the output jack like the old EH LPB-1, Screaming Bird, etc. plugged into an amp (actually more like the Dan Armstrong effects that plugged into a guitar, but were limited to guitars with flush-mounted jacks.). If I make it right I can have the controls right at the end of the guitar flush with the top. Not in a spot where I can use the little finger to manipulate them while playing, but close enough for quick adjustments. I'll just use a simple Fender-type circuit sans switch...or maybe add a switch with a cap or inductor for a preset tone - easy enough to do.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Tobie Schalkwyk
From:
South Africa
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Posted 23 Jun 2008 10:55 am
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Guys, the pot replacement has done wonders! Much better volume AND tone! 
But .... when moving the steel from one side of the neck to the other, I'm still picking up a 'static' sound right at the end of the sustain. Short distances are fine. Long distances not. So I'm out of ideas. What else to look for?  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 1:34 pm
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| Sounds like static noise...make sure the strings are grounded. This is usually done by having a wire from the bridge go to the covers of the pots (which are grounded to the jack). |
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Tobie Schalkwyk
From:
South Africa
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Posted 26 Jun 2008 9:16 pm
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Donny, thanks for your response. I believe the grounding is fine. I've attached a pic of the setup:
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