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Topic: Using A Different Steel Player On An Album |
Dennis Graves
From:
Maryville, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 5:23 am |
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Something I don't understand...
Why do some artists use a different steel man when cutting an album than the one they use on the road? |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 5:50 am
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Put yourself in the position of the producer: the guy who is responsible for making a recording SOUND GOOD, BE COMPLETED ON TIME, and WITHIN BUDGET.
You have the option of hiring, e.g., Paul Franklin, who is in the studio OFTEN. Your engineers know him and his equipment. His cartage guys bring in his stuff and set it up the same way every time. He brings with him an arsenal of instruments (pedal, lap steels, pedabro, etc.) and an amplification system that the studio personnel are familiar with. He also brings the ear of a musician who has recorded on THOUSANDS of records. When the red light goes on, he is READY to go to work and sees his job as creating his part for you as creatively AND as efficiently as possible.
On the other hand, the road guy is not as well known to the studio staff. His tone and equipment are not exactly what they're used to. He may or may not have actually played the song more often than the studio player -- sometimes new songs are not played in concert before they are released on CD. He is probably a good player, but he doesn't record most every day for a living.
Which one would you choose?
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Dennis Graves
From:
Maryville, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 6:00 am
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Larry,
I understand what you're saying.
Guess I always go against the grain on everything. Been that way my whole life. Can't help it.
Seems like everything is always related to money...time, which is money most of the time. If I were Alan Jackson, for example, I would want my regular steel man on my album. That's the only way I would have it. I want the same sound on the road that's found on my album. If my steel player is good enough to be on the road with me, then he is certainly good enough to cut an album.
Sounds like the studio staff is the weaker link here. So what if it takes a little more time and effort. I want the original...the real thing. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 6:09 am
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| In addition to all the 'sound' issues that Larry rightly mentions, there is also the aspect of 'creativity on the spot under pressure'. That's what the best studio players, like Paul, excel at and something that the road players may not be as adept at. The studio guy has to be a consummate 'chameleon' too, so when the producer asks for a specific musical approach, they can nail it quickly. Many road players are great in their familiar roles but may not be able to stretch that far, on demand, with the clock running, and make it sound musical and interesting, and different from what's already been done before. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 6:44 am
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This phenomenon is not as common in Rock and Roll. Dylan, for instance, records with whatever band he has on the road at the moment these days. Elvis used many of the same guys in the studio as he did in concert.
As far as steel players go, I guess the guys out on the road are used to a different dynamic. But don't forget that some of the studio players would be equally inept on the road. One breed is no better than the other, in my opinion. It's just two different worlds. Some guys just like to PLAY it, and don't wanna be in the studio agonizing over stuff. Others get in a live enviornment and freeze because of the pressure to perform it once and once only. Guys like Paul Franklin can do both with ease, so there are exceptions. But I'm sure a lot of road steel players would just as soon be home in bed when the bus stops rolling.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 7:02 am
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I see both sides, but I have to go with Dennis on this. My main reason is that I get tired of hearing the same people all the time. The creativity is important, but not the same guys creativity all the time...then it's not creative anymore, it's simply style. Based on the other way of thinking, we don't really need any new singers. Just let the good ones stay in the studio and cut all the songs.
I don't know why I'm saying any of this because I don't really care. I never listen to top 40 country radio anyway. I grew up on that music...it was called Rock and Roll in the 70's. Willie's Place is more to my liking. XM Rules! |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 8:02 am Studio musicians................ vs. the real players
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Rick, I have to agree with you.
NOTHING used to discourage me more than to rush down to the record store on Saturday mornings, and with my paper route money, grab a handfuul of the latest
Cowboy Copas or Hank Williams discs only to get home and find some "STRANGER" playing steel on these discs.
I realize the producers position however, I think Chet Atkins, Father of the Nashville Sound, was once quoted as saying that his idea for top flight records, had resulted in Country Music all sounding identical. I believe he even apologized for it.
Music is not like a machine shop where they knock out thousands of the same looking/sounding pieces or product but rather.........
It's really "PERSONALITY" with all of those minute differences, is it not? I feel all of that has been lost. So sad, yet some call it progress. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 8:47 am
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Guys,
They don't call it the 'music business' for nothing. It IS, first and foremost, a business. Time is money. You may not like it; I may not like it, but it's a FACT. Many producers (not necessarily ALL) choose studio players. Brad Paisley often (if not always these days) uses Randle Currie (his road player) on his recordings. There are other examples but even among the most loyal band leaders there is pressure to use studio 'first call' players. Some (George Strait comes to mind) have had the same steel player for DECADES but will only use that player on live recordings or occasionally in the studio. It may not seem fair, but fair doesn't make money.
The fact is most good steel players can reproduce the licks on records that Paul, Bruce Bouton, Dan Dugmore, Sonny Garrish, Lloyd Green, and others come up with. With only a few exceptions, the razzle-dazzle is kept to a minimum in the studio. It's all about the SONG not the STEEL PART. It isn't really an issue of it sounding the same in concert as in the studio. All road players are competent musicians capable of handling the material or they wouldn't have been hired. Some may be a bit jealous of the studio guys, but most realize what it took for them to achieve that position.
It's been done that way for ages. Even in the 60s and 70s, there were only a handful of steel players on most of the hit records -- back then it was Pete Drake, Lloyd Green, and a few others -- Sonny Garrish has been around making a living in the studio for a LONG TIME. I realize that it may seem strange or unjust for the musicians to be 'hired guns' (or contract workers as they're called these days) but it is a fact. With few exceptions, the turnover rate in road bands is pretty high. There's not that loyalty built through the years of traveling together.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12
Last edited by Larry Bell on 14 Jun 2008 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 9:07 am
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I go with Larry, on the current (actually for many years) situation in the studios. The "studio" musicians CREATE, the road musicians RECREATE. Many of the road musicians, if given the chance, may or may not be able to CREATE. Most of the current studio musicians started out as road pickers but because they could CREATE they eventually got a foot in the door and as long as they can CREATE they will be there. Knowing when "not" to play also is an asset.
When I was in Nashville I would hear of a road picker that would be given a chance in the studio and if you have the talent they will keep hiring you but sadly most just went back to the road and never got into a studio. It's no different in "Podunk". I was the staff steel guitar player for "Big K" records, in Kansas City, Mo, back in the mid/late 70's and early 80's (until he closed the studio). There was a session coming up and a lead guitar player was needed. The band I was working with at the time had an excellent lead guitar player and could copy whatever licks were on records and even had some formal music training. As it turned out he was a "RECREATER", when we got ready to do the session he was totally lost and had no idea what to do in the song (I can't say I'm a great creater either but I did get the steel session jobs in his studio). |
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Dennis Graves
From:
Maryville, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 9:17 am
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Larry, I think we all agree that it is a fact the way things are done. And just because it's been done that way for years doesn't make it right.
There are many, many local singers throughout this country that are every bit as good or even better than what's in Nashville. We could send them to Nashville with session players and produce a top quality, excellent sounding record. But what do you have? I will never accept that the way it's done is right. I'd rather hear the real deal with all the band members.
Dennis |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 9:52 am
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This has always irked me too. To listen to the logic expressed by some, you'd have to believe that studio time was fifty thousand dollars an hour. (Of course, if it is, then someone's getting seriously overpaid...and it probably ain't the musicians!  )
Anyway, it's a moot point nowadays. Most of today's "stars" would throw a fit if the players behind them got a little attention and recognition. A lot of today's big "stars" even have websites that don't tell who's in the band!!!
"Who's playin' lead for LeeJean Bighat?"
"Who cares?" |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 9:54 am
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| Quote: |
| And just because it's been done that way for years doesn't make it right. |
It doesn't matter whether it's right or not. It's neither your decision nor mine. It is the decision of those who pay for the recordings to be made. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 10:12 am
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A signature lick on a song is okay, but to say that road musicians are only there to recreate and copy the studio licks is a very degrading attitude in my opinion. If that's all that's required, why even bother, let's just have the stars bring their studio tracks on the road.
Keeping in mind that we are looking at this from a musicians viewpoint...which is a minority of fans. Yes, it's all about the money, and as a business it should be. |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 11:44 am psg
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| One of my favorite things to do with steel is studio work. Listening to a song you've never heard before and being asked to creat and add steel parts to it is work but fun work. I like to put down two or three different styles and phrasings and let the session leader choose which one he likes for a particular song. I like for PSG to compliment a song. As far as road players not doing sessions, I believe it's a personal thing with each player. I prefer seeing the road player on a CD liner note area, as being the player on the session but that's not for everybody. Many of CD's I purchase are only because of the steel parts and who is playing them. If I see Emmons, Franklin, Johnson, Green or some the sessions Hughey did, then I'll purchase it. If I hear something on the radio and really like it, I get it regardless of who did the steel work. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 12:26 pm
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| Or this thread could called "why do they use a different steel player on the road" the answer being that nobody is willing to spend as much money as Mark Knopfler. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 1:16 pm
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| Rick Campbell wrote: |
let's just have the stars bring their studio tracks on the road.
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Many if not most touring acts have been doing that for years. Or, more accurately, Pro Tools is playing many of the tracks, both audio and MIDI. If she is dancing, you can bet the house that she is not singing what you hear. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 3:04 pm
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monetary aspects dictate that it has nothing to do with 'art'!!
are you telling me britney may not be the incredible dancing singing goddess i always thought she was?? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 5:54 pm
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| Larry Bell wrote: |
| It's neither your decision nor mine. It is the decision of those who pay for the recordings to be made. |
In the end, I thought the "stars" paid (directly or indirectly) for just about everything out of their share of the earnings? Most of the horror stories I hear about are that the stars must sell tractor-trailer loads of t-shirts, photos, and other stuff while on tour just so they can make decent money? 
Most of the CD and airplay money goes to the labels. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 7:59 pm
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| Quote: |
| The "studio" musicians CREATE, the road musicians RECREATE. Many of the road musicians, if given the chance, may or may not be able to CREATE. |
I think that's a pretty serious overgeneralization. I think there are plenty of fine, creative road musicians out there. I believe many "recreate" studio parts because that's what they are expected to do - make it sound like the record. I think reproducing someone else's parts is a significant skill in itself. I don't think it's reasonable to assume none or even most of them can't "create". I believe there are very creative musicians of all stripes, and others who aren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that Vince Gill didn't play guitar on many of his recordings - that was from reading interviews with him. What's up with that? Nothing against the studio players at all - I think they played great. But Vince can hold his own with anybody. If you don't believe that, listen to the American Music Shop show he hosted with Danny Gatton, Albert Lee, and John Hughey.
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| It doesn't matter whether it's right or not. It's neither your decision nor mine. It is the decision of those who pay for the recordings to be made. |
I understand the convenience thing. Nobody here is arguing that producers can't do what they want. Of course they can. The discussion is whether or not we think they should do that. One can argue this from any point of view desired - the Harvard MBA point of view is emphatically not the only legitimate one. Instead, I would argue that using the same small group of players all the time on hundreds or thousands of recordings - to my tastes - creates a certain level of homogenization in the music, no matter how talented or creative the studio players are - and I acknowledge that level of talent.
I think the ultimate judge is the listeners who buy or don't buy the records. As a listener, I couldn't care less how they make records, who plays, or anything else. I listen to the results - if it moves me, I buy it, and if it doesn't, I don't. It seems to me that there has been a lot of griping about music sales being down. Why should I buy something if it sounds pretty much the same as the last 20 (or 200) I heard? I don't accept the oft floated idea that it's all illegal downloading. There's a scapegoat for ya'.
I also think there is a bit of overemphasis on "technical perfection" in the mainstream music biz these days. This isn't restricted to Nashville or even any particular style of music. You can say "That's the way it is, just shut up and accept it." Fine, but I feel differently. I'm way more interested in music feeling right than being technically perfect, and I don't want it to generally feel the same from song to song or artist to artist. I don't think I'm alone. We have a right to feel the way we do about any of this.
| Quote: |
| This phenomenon is not as common in Rock and Roll. |
Of course, studio musicians are used in all fields, but I basically agree. Nor is it as common in folk, blues, jazz, bluegrass, and a lot of other styles. I think my beef is the extreme to which this is taken in much mainstream pop music, which I feel country has become a part of. I certainly appreciate the great studio players, and of course they should get used in many situations. But to virtually always assume that nobody else could do the job as well - or sometimes even better - seems wrong to me. I see bands who play for years together, have their thing completely together, and then when they get recorded, have someone else come in and do many of the parts cold. It ain't always better, IMHO.
My opinions, as always. |
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Steve English
From:
Baja, Arizona
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 10:24 pm
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I think there's a side to the equation that's being overlooked; the road guy makes his money on the road.
The band members generate the lion's share of their income playing shows. Think how much money is generated at one concert performance. The cut/salary can be much more inviting to the working stiff than studio scale, or double-scale if their lucky.
Most of smart ones know how many days a year they can play before they physically destruct. Putting them in a recording studio during their breaks, and then back on the road again for a run of tours is not as much fun (and lucrative) as you might think.
There are exceptions. Each organization has it's business plan. Brad Paisley's guys do both, and I know there are others.
And as far as Rock..
A lot more rock guys than you can imagine used to get their parts replaced by the good studio pros in the day hours....while the stars where still crashed out from the previous "mood enhanced" all night studio session.
_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Jun 2008 11:03 pm
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For the record, I did not suggest that bands or "artists" of any stripe shouldn't use studio players. I think that is something they should decide for themselves. In a lot of deals, they are ultimately paying for the costs of production, and it's their future that is on the line.
I think what a lot of people don't get is the sense that these kinds of production decisions often get made on autopilot, like turning out Chevys on a Detroit assembly line. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's a pretty wide perception among people not inside the country music industry. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
As far as rock and roll - yeah, some of the great solos were hired guns. But lots of other great solos were done by the band members. To a large extent, I think it's considered gauche in the rock and roll world to rely too heavily on ringers in recording. Even more so in blues, bluegrass, jazz, and other styles. The issue is "authenticity", and a lot of bands have gotten flack for not playing on their own records.
Earnest's comment about Knopfler is perceptive and even a bit funny. Now that's some great music. I really think there is something to working with a unit long enough to really gel. Yeah, the studio musicians work with each other all the time, but I think that's different than everybody, including singers, working with their regular units. Don't any of you miss that in studio recordings? I know I do. My model of a "band recording" is "The Band". YMMV. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Jun 2008 2:35 am
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Many times the Road Player may only be for one tour, or less....
All road players are not CAREER artists band members.
Many road players do not LIVE where the sessions are..
Many Road players could be OUT on the ROAD again with another artist when the sessions are taking place.
Logistics can be a big part of it. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Jun 2008 4:02 am
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| Steve English wrote: |
| The band members generate the lion's share of their income playing shows. Think how much money is generated at one concert performance. The cut/salary can be much more inviting to the working stiff than studio scale, or double-scale if their lucky. |
But that assumes that the sidemen we're talking about are getting a significant share of the concert money, and I don't think that happens very often. I don't know how much it's changed, but it used to be that the real good money was made by the studio players. Road pay never made a sideman wealthy, and with all those involved in a "big act" show today, I'd be surprised if a steel player made over a few hundred per show. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 15 Jun 2008 5:34 am
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The days of an artist having a long lived touring band are, for the most part, over. It is neither democratic nor 'right' -- it is a JOB. Road players put bread on their tables by being available to tour. Studio players rarely tour because they are expected to be available for recordings. This is in the world of big business, major label music. Most of us do not live in that world. In the world of independent artists, the rules are totally different.
Donny, I would be very surprised if any major artists signed to a major label actually pay for studio players' fees. Not being an insider, I don't know for sure, but everything I've seen indicates that, in most cases, the 'money man' is the label.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 15 Jun 2008 6:33 am
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Road players can't stay out 12 months out of the year--Artists don't tour for a year non-stop, and the band needs to come hometo make some REAL money  |
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