Noob Question: E9 History

Carl Morris · From: Boulder, Colorado, USA

I know, this looks like flame-bait, but that isn't my intention. I've searched the forum and Google and still have questions.

When I look at the C6 copedent, I can see what the inventor was going for. When I look at E9, it's a bit more confusing. Especially strings 1 and 2. I recognize that if I want to play a fast scale-like run in that range, I can do it faster with a string for every note, but is that really worth all the extra mechanicals? I'm not understanding why there isn't just a pedal or lever to drop 3,4 to the 1,2 pitches, or vice-versa. If I could get to every note without those strings, what makes them so important?

Basically I'm at the noob stage where I'd be perfectly happy with an 8-string made from a U12 minus 1,2,7,10 plus a custom pedal setting or two, and wondering why I shouldn't just buy an 8-string Lonestar set up that way and be done with it? Smile

I guess part of the issue is that my primary interests are older country, blues, and rock. I don't really listen much to newer country, so I have no idea what people are playing that makes the extra features of E9 critical?

Links to videos, constructive insults, or anything else enlightening is appreciated.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Once you understand the system, you'll find that you can change grips faster than you can move the bar or push a pedal. The main reason for those "extra" strings is the convenience of having all of the notes of the scale available in each of 7 different fret positions, with a minimum of pedal movement.

This will enable you to pick any scale notes you want at the current fret and slide them up or down to the next position, and then grip any other scale notes you want and slide them, etc. More notes at each fret allows for smoother transitions and phrasing.
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Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Buddy Emmons was the first to put the high F# and Ed strings on E9. He did it in the early '60s, played it on "Half A Mind" by Ernest Tubb, thought of giving up on them and then noticed other players were starting to do it, too. He figured it would sure be ridiculous if his playing style was out of date thanks to his own innovation and then it became standard.

Letting those first two strings ring out with the rest of the "inside" tuning is just as integral to the sound of pedal steel guitar in the last 45 years as the pedals are.

However, as a traditional country musician, nothing gets on my nerves more than a pedal steel player who uses those "in between" notes all the time on '40s and '50s country. It just effects the timelessness for me. Take them off if you want to mess with the eight string core tuning. The high two strings were meant to add to what was an eight string tuning. So then when you put them back on it will make more sense.

Use them with taste. A lot of younger players use those first two strings as an excuse to never move their left hand. Find all the places you can to get the notes you want.

Oh, and don't underestimate the value of the 9th string! Alot of new players are dropping this string and missing out on the 7th that makes E9th a 9th!

CS

PS, keep in mind everyone's opinions are different, and this opinion is coming from a guy whose only PSG is a 1957 eight string Fender 400 (with E as the highest string, not even G#) and mostly plays nonpedal. But from how you describe yourself, it seems our musical tastes are similar.

Carl Morris · From: Boulder, Colorado, USA

Thanks for the replies, you're all making sense in different ways. I hadn't thought about wanting to make close interval chords, pretty much all the music I play tends to stick to triads with maybe a few standard extensions at the top of the chord. I hadn't though about maybe wanting an 8 along with my 7 and/or 9 sometimes, for example, I figured the root had that covered.

Bob's response sounds the most official/textbook, but in my noobiness it's the one I understand least. I'll have to see what comes along that makes those things matter to me.

Thanks again.
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Jeremy Threlfall · From: now in Western Australia

try something like:

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/002738.html

("Who created the E9th tuning, when, and why?")

Carl Morris · From: Boulder, Colorado, USA

I'm getting a 404 for that, I'll try it again tomorrow.
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http://cdmorris.com/music/

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Try this instead:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002738.html

You had me worried there for a minute. Here's the "new forum" version:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=31909
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Jeremy Threlfall · From: now in Western Australia

Ah - I see the error in my ways (the 'ol FORUM5 trick)

thanks, B0B

that was a great thread - I read it often for fun

Carl Morris · From: Boulder, Colorado, USA

Fun read, hilarious storytelling Smile

. Thanks, that was what I was looking for and didn't find in my searches.
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Norris Ashment · From: Idaho Falls Idaho, USA

Carl go to this link and look at the Tab of To Cold At Home 1990. You can get this by lowering your 4th string, but it won't sound the same.
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html

Norris Ashment · From: Idaho Falls Idaho, USA

Here one for the 1st string. I know your guitar won't do this but if you put your finger out behind the bar and pull it over you can pull it a 1/2 step. with A and B or just A pedal down out pops Mooney.
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Swinging%20Doors.pdf
A lot of magic lays in the 1,2,7 and 9th string

Carl Morris · From: Boulder, Colorado, USA

Hi Norris,

Thanks for the examples, I got about halfway into the first one and my wife started complaining about her computer not being able to see the network, and of course that was the end of any hope of doing anything productive the rest of the night.

I assume you were talking about the intro for the first one. I didn't see any use of the 1 or 2 strings in the turnaround. It seems to me that using the 4 string sounds fine right up until you need it for something else but you want it to keep ringing the previous note. Is that what you meant by not sounding the same?

I'll have to look at the last one tomorrow. Dick Meis showed me the pull-the-string-behind-the-bar trick when I was at his house...pretty tricky Smile

.
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Norris Ashment · From: Idaho Falls Idaho, USA

Hi Carl. Nice to hear from you. Yes it is the intro in to that song. I think in a sense thats what I'm saying. Remember to your equal temp tuning plays a part in here to.
Heres a lick that has been around I'm guessing from the 60's. Go up the the 8th fret , hit 2,3,5 then A&B down,let off A&B slide down 2 frets then end on on fret 3 4,5,6 A&B down. Or don't slide down and pull the bar off 2 slide up 2 frets to 10 4,5,6 AB down then slide back to fret 8 as you roll off the pedals. Simple and very pretty stuff.
4 things I most hated about the pedal steel when I started
String 1
string 2
string 7
string 9

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

I usually ignore the top 2 strings. However, if you have a knee lever set up to lower the 2nd string by a 1/2 step you can play a 3rds harmonized scale in a very logical fashion. EX:

Key of C:

fret 1: Cmaj no lever
fret 3: Dmin w/lever
fret 5: Emin w/lever
fret 6: Fmaj no lever
fret 8: Gmaj no lever
fret 10: Amin w/lever
fret 12: Bmin(dim) w/lever
fret 13: Cmaj no lever

Also, if strings 6-5-4 are your major I chord, then strings 5-2-1 are your V chord. If you play a V and a I together, you have a Imaj9, ex:

C-E-G + G-B-D

Having said all this, I've removed the D(9th) from my guitar. I got sick of hitting that 7th all the time. Seems to be in a bad range for me. I figured I'd rather have a power chord on the bottom and retuned my bottom 3 strings to E-B-E. I wouldn't recommend this to start with though.
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Carl Morris · From: Boulder, Colorado, USA

Thanks guys. This is all a bit strange to me, this whole learning licks from tab thing. I'm more used to learning my way around an instrument and then thinking in terms of what key I'm in rather than what lick I'm trying to play. Nevertheless, these things are all helping me try things I wouldn't have thought of on my own. I am really liking how that intro to Too Cold at Home works.

I'm still not sure whether I'll end up leaving the low strings alone, but I'm convinced that keeping 1 and 2 are worth the hassle now. Smile

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http://cdmorris.com/music/

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I thought those first two strings were crazy, but with the help of b0b and others, I saw the error or my ways. I even use the D lever now!
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Norris Ashment · From: Idaho Falls Idaho, USA

Hi Carl heres one for 6,7 and 9
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/citylights.html
You can also slide down from 15 to 14 pedals up and at 13 tap on and off B pedal. A nice way to get from your 1 to V cord

Brian Pelky · From: Portland, OR

Hi Norris, I'm checking out this link to City Lights tab. Does this tab show rythmically what's going on, or is that supposed to be assumed?
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Norris Ashment · From: Idaho Falls Idaho, USA

Brian here is the complete page. What you see and hear is what you get.
Edit a big foo foo was here
i just use TAB for a hint for playing. To many ways to write it I guess

Norris Ashment · From: Idaho Falls Idaho, USA

Brian let try that again
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/1958.html

Norris Ashment · From: Idaho Falls Idaho, USA

I've had a lot of Email today about where some of these places were at with the Tab. I like to just go here and listen to the Intros and Breaks of the songs that were came out when I was a kid. Puts me right back on the farm
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html

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