| Author |
Topic: I want to see if my suspicions are true. |
Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 12:22 pm |
|
How many of you think the hotter a pickup is the better it is? How many of you think plugging into the input marked "High" on an amplifier is better than plugging into the input marked "Low" Just curious.  Steel Guitar pickup builders are getting really good at their craft. I can assure you most of the newer pickups are putting out close to 2 volts and in most cases over 2 volts. I am not judging wheather that is good or bad, just an observation. |
|
|
 |
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 12:30 pm
|
|
Mine are 16k stock JW wire size, whatever it is.
Danny Shields used to maintain that pickups were almost always overwound.
I'm in the same school of thought.
My S~B pickups have a "thinner" sound than any of my "Tele" pickups.
I "think" it was from a time when amps needed more front end signal, and carried over.
Maybe what's why on the Podxt, my old 22k ones always said "overdrive" or whatever the warning was on the xt. The 16ks don't.
Back to my real world here..
EJL |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 12:48 pm
|
|
well I certainly don't know about the pickup thing but I believe that input #2 on most brand name amps has a 10db pad compared to input #1. I did try to use #2 input on a Music Man 130 but it caused break up too early on the V knob compared to the primary input. I was trying to tone the dang thing down. I sold it instead !
Now on the other hand, I have been using my Fender Hot Rod Deville for a few sessions with the MUZAK crew and I use the #2 input to keep the volume down in the studio. Seems to workout ok.
My Steel is a Carter with an E66.
tp |
|
|
|
Jerry Van Hoose
From:
Wears Valley, Tennessee
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 2:16 pm
|
|
Once, while in a rush, I mistakenly plugged my steel w/Truetone pickup & pot pedal into #2 on a Nashville 1000,
the clear sparkle that I was used to was missing until I noticed my mistake and switched #1.
Last edited by Jerry Van Hoose on 16 Jan 2018 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 2:40 pm
|
|
Hotter is definitely NOT better!!! I hate the sound of overwound coils, and that's what almost all PSG pickups sound like to me. I don't like the sound of hot pickups in 6-string either, and I absolutely loathe most PAFs.
On a Fender amp, input 2 is the only one to use with a hot PSG pup. I don't know anything about Peaveys.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 3:05 pm
|
|
Hotter is not necessarily better to me at all. It depends on what I'm going for. That's true every bit as much for pedal steel and guitar. Sometimes I want something more lightly wound like a stock Tele pickup, and other times I prefer a somewhat hotter humbucker, like a PAF or a more hotly wound pedal steel pickup. I think Bob Carlucci has a good idea with 2, to give 3 switchable tones. I certainly know I love the tapped pickup on my old Sho Bud.
If a pickup is so hot that I need to use the Lo input on an amp, I'm probably not going to be very happy. The reason is not that the input is less sensitive, but the fact that (most) Lo inputs also have a lower input impedance, which is what I believe tends to suck the tone out of the signal. In fact, that generally reduces the high-frequency response and presence of the signal.
But I tend to like Lawrence pickups, which, to my ears, seem to put out a pretty good signal, are humbucking, and have a good, balanced signal with a lot of presence. |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 5:18 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| How many of you think the hotter a pickup is the better it is? |
Not me. At high output and/or high DC resistance levels they all start to sound generic and sterile. But a while back there were a few threads about how "one steel tone" would be a good idea and many manufacturers were aiming for a "standard". Personally, I think it's an awful idea.
Apart from that, hot pickups have all kinds of problems with effects pedals of various types (MXR boxes, vintage in particular, will distort like mad without a Steeldriver or something to "dumb down" the pickup.) Also, if you're like me and want to add tone/volume controls it creates a whole new set of parameters.
But to sum up what I started with - most really hot pickups just sound bad to me. No warmth, no "guts" - just a flat, even, sterile-sounding response.
Not my style.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 6:35 pm
|
|
Hot pickups outrun the front end ofmost amps---and preamp distortion sounds kinda like a busted speaker, to me. I've seen 6-string pickups rated at 12K--That's GOTTA sound mushy  .
Man, I'm DIGGIN' that little green dude! |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 6:54 pm
|
|
Personally, I prefer amps where the volume knob goes up to 11. More headroom.  |
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 30 Apr 2008 7:55 pm
|
|
| I've asked this before, and never gotten a response, but doesn't the volume pedal between the pickup and amp fix any mismatch between the pickup and amp? If the pickup is too hot for the amp, why not just back off on the volume pedal and turn up the amp volume? This doesn't deal with the tone issue, but I can't understand how a pickup can overload a preamp if the volume pedal is backed off. |
|
|
|
J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
|
Posted 1 May 2008 4:01 am
|
|
I like the sound of pickups wound to around 12k, all other things being equal. They sound clearer to me.
The #2 input on Fender tube amps from the 50's to at least the end of the 70's, have a lower input impedance(68K) than the #1 input (1 meg), so will sound duller unless you have some active device buffering the steel from the amp. So I use the #1 input. |
|
|
|
Rick Winfield
From:
Pickin' beneath the Palmettos
|
Posted 1 May 2008 7:48 am BMI
|
|
any opinions on BMI's "power boost" pup?
Rick |
|
|
|
Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
|
Posted 1 May 2008 9:09 am
|
|
| David, how many of these 9 volt battery operated delay, and reverb units do you see that has controls on both the input and output. Usually they have ZERO controls. Jim C, I agree, I would like to run my volume on 12 if I could get away with it. Recently lost a playing job because the singers said I played too loud. But after all, I don't want to be just another warm body sitting behind a steel for a singer. With a 9 volt battery powered effect device you have less than 4.5 volt rails of head room. Exceed that 4.5 volts and your guitar will sound like a buzz saw hitting a rusty nail. I've tried to get some of these country singers into ZZ Top but they refuse. Come on Jim C, admit it, the hotter the pickup the better. Come on Jim C, admit it, you would never ever plug into the 2nd hole marked "LOW". |
|
|
|
Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
|
Posted 1 May 2008 11:47 am
|
|
| Yes, Jim ----it is a LOADED question. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 1 May 2008 12:03 pm
|
|
| David Doggett wrote: |
| I've asked this before, and never gotten a response, but doesn't the volume pedal between the pickup and amp fix any mismatch between the pickup and amp? If the pickup is too hot for the amp, why not just back off on the volume pedal and turn up the amp volume? This doesn't deal with the tone issue, but I can't understand how a pickup can overload a preamp if the volume pedal is backed off. |
Dave, the problem is that a lot of players are afraid to turn the amp up, and tend to run it at as low a level as possible. (They never learned how to control volume with their foot.) So, you gottcha amp volume on "3" (and we've all heard that ol' "My amp's too powerful - I never turn my amp volume over 3" thing), and when they want to get louder or increase your sustain, they just stomp the volume pedal. Bingo! They've now got over a volt going into a preamp that was designed for half a volt or less.
So, the simple answer is "Yes", using less volume pedal prevents the overloading and distortion, but that only is practical when the amp volume is turned 'way up. If the amp volume is low, you instinctively just push the pedal more to get louder, and in comes th distortion! Also, powered volume pedals can make the problem even worse if their gain is turned up too high.
This stuff's not always as simple as it appears!  |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 1 May 2008 12:08 pm
|
|
| Keith Hilton wrote: |
| Come on Jim C, admit it, the hotter the pickup the better. Come on Jim C, admit it, you would never ever plug into the 2nd hole marked "LOW". |
Not unless the 1st hole was broke. |
|
|
|
Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
|
Posted 1 May 2008 9:59 pm
|
|
| David Doggett wrote: |
| I've asked this before, and never gotten a response, but doesn't the volume pedal between the pickup and amp fix any mismatch between the pickup and amp? If the pickup is too hot for the amp, why not just back off on the volume pedal and turn up the amp volume? This doesn't deal with the tone issue, but I can't understand how a pickup can overload a preamp if the volume pedal is backed off. |
Actually, the volume pedal pot would have to be in series with the pickup, wouldn't it? That way, when you backed off the pedal, you'd be adding MORE DC resistance in line. Now, we all know that DC resistance and AC impedance are two different animals, by backing off the volume, the tone gets thinner, due to the increased DC resistance (And AC impedance). So the amp sees less of the signal, and whatever resistive/capacitative load is in the line, is gonna affect the tone. That's the reason a lot of humbucking 6-string players put a small capacitor across their volume pots on the guitar---It allows more highs to pass when the volume is turned down. |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 1 May 2008 10:50 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| I've asked this before, and never gotten a response, but doesn't the volume pedal between the pickup and amp fix any mismatch between the pickup and amp? If the pickup is too hot for the amp, why not just back off on the volume pedal and turn up the amp volume? This doesn't deal with the tone issue, but I can't understand how a pickup can overload a preamp if the volume pedal is backed off. |
David,
I had this problem with a 710 overloading the first input of my old Deluxe. It didn't seem like anything I did with the volume pedal helped much. There was always that sub harmonic intermodulation distortion in there somewhere. I changed to the 2nd input and it worked fine.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 2 May 2008 3:41 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Actually, the volume pedal pot would have to be in series with the pickup, wouldn't it? That way, when you backed off the pedal, you'd be adding MORE DC resistance in line. |
No. Though putting the resistance in series will also lower signal, it's simply not as effective as the standard parallel (voltage divider) method.
I'm not exactly sure why "hot" pickups are so in vogue right now, though I'd imagine it was just a simple way for the "tone heads" to get a one-up on the other player without woodshedding.  |
|
|
|
David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
|
Posted 2 May 2008 4:49 am
|
|
If I want clean,
I never plug into the Champs 1st input, always 2.
If I want drive and grit Channel 1 for me.
If the pickup on a steel is too hot for the preamp input,
then it is to hot.
If you are over driving it hard, then hot is better,
if you are looking for clean and no noise,
well balanced to the amp in question is correct. IMHO.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 2 May 2008 6:08 am
|
|
The "hot" issue to me does not involve noise or volume - it's tone. "Overwound" guitar pickups for steel-string were all the rage in the 80's, and why you hear all that great, distinctive, warm guitar tones from arena-rock bands like Journey and Styx.
cough, cough....
The trend in that *other* guitar world is back to lower-output, lower-resistance pickups that have better string-to-string articulation and are warmer sounding. The hotter pickups were great for high-gain, generic-tone applications (note - "gain" DOES NOT mean volume) but the resurgence of tube amps and interest in vintage instruments has brought things around full-circle to pickups made like those in the 50's and 60's.
I've had steel pickups with DC resistance up around 20-22k, and without exception they sounded, to me, simply bad. Flat, lifeless, and sterile. They had tons of output - but who cares about controlling output if the output sounds bad at ALL volume levels?
The highest DC-resistance pickup I've had on a steel that I thought was tonally excellent is the GFI-II that's on my Ultra. It's around 14k if I recall correctly.
I'd like to touch on something Donny said - and he absolutely nailed it. Most players use amps with too much power for most situations, keep them turned down, and their tone suffers. Both tube and solid-state amps "bloom" and the tone improves when they are being driven fairly hard - meaning the amp is turned up. But the tendency for most players is "too much amp" syndrome - and 100 or 200 watt amps turned up to "2" or "3" are going to sound like crap no matter HOW hot your pickup is. The speakers (rated for higher power handling) usually are not even being driven hard enough to react properly at low levels, and you end up with a thin, weak tone. A smaller amp with lower power-rated speakers, cranked up, is what gets a full, round, smooth tone. Listen to some of Lloyd Green's late-60's/early-70's stuff (not really my style, but a great example of clean tone) from sessions - using a Deluxe Reverb. 22 watts of thundering power. Now why would he use that in the studio vs a Twin Reverb?
Tone.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
|
Posted 2 May 2008 7:59 am
|
|
| Jim, the GFI II is what is on my ultra. I know for a fact that there are many steel players who have pickups that are putting out 2 plus volts. It has forced me into building pedals that will handle this high voltage output without distortion. The old text books say a one volt signal is a high level powered pre amp signal. These pickup builders now days don't need a pre amp to get their coils to output 2 plus volts. Is MORE always better. It is not for me to judge. |
|
|
|
David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
|
Posted 2 May 2008 8:15 am
|
|
Most amp inputs are referenced to 0.5v inputs,
with an expectatin of 1v.
But no Fender is really expecting 2v.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
|
|
|
Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
|
Posted 2 May 2008 1:07 pm
|
|
| I have some questions for Jim Cohen. First--Who is buried in Grant's Tomb? It is not George Armstrong Custard. Next-- How many volts can be fed to a delay unit powered by a 9 volt battery? Hope you don't say 16 volts. Next--I sold a pedal in Isreal, and the guy found out my wife was Jewish. He sent me an e-mail that ask "If my wife misses SHAWARMA. I ask Beverly and her brother, David Shapiro what SHAWARMA meant. Neither one knew. Can you find out what this means? |
|
|
|
Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
|
Posted 2 May 2008 1:36 pm
|
|
| Hotter is not necessarily better. Low gain pickups can be compensated for by amp gains. A rule in digital photography says that if you underexpose, there is always some signal to pull out of the noise, but if you overexpose, it's gone forever. |
|
|
|
