"spanish" guitar tuning, why not?

James Mayer · Posted 5 Sep 2006 1:22 pm

I'm primarily a flamenco guitarist and my knowledge of the EADGBE "standard" guitar tuning is strong. I use this tuning for my lap steel and it works out just fine. The major and minor triads are under a straight bar and I can improvise becuase I already know the freboard.

Why isn't this tuning used more for lap steel?

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Steve Howe of Yes use the standard guitar tuning along with E-major on his D-6 Fender.
The four top strings are basically a G6/Em7, so yes, you have access to both major an minor triads (plus a handful of others) there.

My objection to this tuning, even if one only plays single note stuff, is that the intervals between the strings are bigger than in most common lap steel tunings.

I do sit down and play in this tuning sometimes, but mostly as a sort of "mental excercise",- it's good to 'refresh' the old brain now and then to break away from tired cliches....

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 05 September 2006 at 02:54 PM.]

James Mayer · Posted 5 Sep 2006 1:58 pm

"My objection to this tuning, even if one only plays single note stuff, is that the intervals between the strings are bigger than in most common lap steel tunings."

I get what you are saying, yet I don't. Why does the interval distance bother you?

James Mayer · Posted 5 Sep 2006 2:00 pm

"Oh, and welcome to the forum! "

Thanks. Good to finally be posting.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

One thing is that I have to use wider bar movements to get the tones I want, and the other is the chord voicings. I simply prefer the sound of 'closer' voicings.

Take the top four strings of the standard G tuning and whip the fourth string up to an E, and you have EGBD (low to high) - the same notes as you get with standard tunings, but there they are DGBE. As you can see the intervals in "my" G6 are closer than in "yours", which - IMHO - makes bar movement more 'logical' and I also prefer the sound of an E minor (for example) in this tuning over the standard tuning. It just sounds more 'together', in a way...

Steinar

PS - Perhaps I should mention that I come from the same background as you - almost 30 years of guitar playing before picking up the lap steel - and I also found the "6th" tunings confusing at first. G-major seemed very logical to me though, because strings 2-4 were identical to regular tuning, and same with E-major because of the failiar 'barre' poitions. I still consider myself mostly a 'major tuning' player, mostly in D and G....

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 05 September 2006 at 03:07 PM.]

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 05 September 2006 at 03:13 PM.]

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

I also played standard guitar for 15+ years before I ever touched a lap steel. Yes, Steve Howe a few others play steel in standard tunings but you'll have access to much richer chord voicings by tuning to one of the established steel tunings. People have been working at this for 90+ years so there some good reasons for the lap steel status quo. Just one example: the standard C6th 6-string steel guitar tuning is hi-low, ECAGEC. On a standard gutar, this C6th chord's four notes are available as a Johnny Smith-type stretch voicing skipping every other fret. Playable, but by no means an easy grab. The C6th tuning however, offers lush 6-string 6th voicings, major, minor, dim, aug, maj7, 9th, dom 7th, etc. and scales, 6ths and thirds lay out in a very logical manner. John Ely has some good info about choosing tunings here: http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/tunings.html

It certainly is confusing at first ... you feel like you're giving up years of hard won knowledge and technique but it's worth it to meet the steel on its own terms and learn to get the most that you can out of the instrument.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 05 September 2006 at 03:39 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I make my living playing standard guitar and bass. I tune everything I own in that tuning---banjos, sitar, mandolin, esraj, 6 string bass. I even have a pedal steel with that tuning on six of the strings and E9 on the upper strings. Tom Morrell at one time had a 12 string pedal steel with the Spanish guitar tuning in the middle of it. At this stage of my life I have given up on ever getting away from it totally on any instrument I have. I cannot find the time to become as comfortable with another tuning as good old EADGBE.

The Leavitt tuning interests me quite a bit.

If you have a cheap pedal guitar with standard 3 and 4, you can set up some really nice things using EADGBE. There have been some 6 string pedal guitars made to work with guitar players who do not want to delve in E9 and C6.

Perhaps a triple neck would be the ticket. C6, some sort of blues/rock tuning and then the old standby for your security blanket.

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

When I got my first steel (A Champion) many years ago, I had already been playing guitar full time for quite a while. At that time I didn't know anyone who played non-pedal steel, and the internet was years away. So I dropped strings 5 & 6 a whole step and tuned it to G6 like this:
DGDGBE
That gave me a huge 5151 power chord on the bottom 4 strings, plus major & minor triads with a straight bar - and of course the top 4 strings were still standard tuning so I knew where all the notes were without having to think too much.
It's a good tuning for guitar players to get quick-started on steel. My old Champion is still tuned that way.
Then if you drop the high E to D you have low bass G . .

Tunings

RA

David Doggett · Posted 6 Sep 2006 8:08 am

Almost from the beginning on guitar I used both the regular Spanish tuning and open blues tunings. Even fretting with fingers, there are sounds you can get on open tunings that you can't get on Spanish tuning (and vice versus of course). With a finger slide or a bar, there is one obvios reason why the Spanish tuning is not popular. You can't bend the bar. You need a chord layed out across several strings encompassing more than one inversion. I feel very limited playing slide on Spanish tuning. It just wasn't designed for that. I guess you can make it work for you. But to me it is like swimming upstream. If that was all I had, I wouldn't play much slide or steel.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

James Mayer · Posted 6 Sep 2006 8:15 am

"You can't bend the bar. You need a chord layed out across several strings encompassing more than one inversion."

Ahhh, this is why I asked in the first place. I need to know how steel players think. I've tried some bar slants in C6 tuning and saw it more as a drawback than an advantage. It seemed difficult to intonate and unnecessarily difficult. Why would you WANT to have to slant? I'm guessing it the sound of sliding out of a slant to a straight bar landing in an inversion of the original slanted chord?

After being obsessed with flamenco technique for years, I guess I want things to be easy with my secondary instruments so I can concentrate on the music, finally.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

James Mayer · Posted 6 Sep 2006 8:55 am

Steiner,

Good point about the two fingers. I admit that I am simply in love with the tone and feel of single-line melodies played on a lap steel. My steel playing is simple and wouldn't work at all for solo instrumentals. I rarely use chords on the steel but would like to start expanding my possibilities and chords seems like the natural next step.

Ever listen to The Friends Of Dean Martinez? The steel takes center stage and it's master never plays a chord. It's very cello like with lots of effects and frequent eBowing. It's beautiful stuff. Some mellow, some rocking. Here's an example of the rocking:
http://funkychurch.com/images/stories/music/timesnotyourfriend.mp3

If you aren't playing jazz or a "steel specific" style, like Hawaiian, the basic triads and fifths are all you need and EADGBE can handle it. I'm definately sticking to it for one of my necks. My second-neck tuning is up in the air at this point.

Obviously, it's limiting, that's why I'm asking all these questions.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

My own playing is also very single-note based, at least the instrumental stuff on my CD. Guess I still consider the lap steel as a "saxophone" with the added ability to play harmonized lines and chords when I want/need to.

I use a lot more harmonizing and chord work when I play for others and take a more accompanying role, compared to my own material where the lap steel is the melodic voice. I use slants a lot in those settings, especially since I mostly play in major tunings and sometimes need to slant like crazy...

If you're happy with using the standard guitar tuning, then I'd say go ahead and do it, it's the end result that matters. That's some of the beauty with the lap steel,- there are very few (if any) absolute rules, do whatever makes you happy and gets your job done. There's no tuning police that will come and arrest you, just remember that there is a reason why the classic lap steel tunings has become "classics"..

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 06 September 2006 at 10:33 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 6 Sep 2006 1:07 pm

James, glad to see you are approaching this question with an open mind. You are right that slants are difficult and can be a bitch for intonation. Slants are an intermediate or advanced technique.

In fact one of the reasons for open tunings is to get as much as possible, in terms of chords and harmony, without slants. Open tunings also give you the most to work with on the open strings (hammer-ons and pull-offs) when you are in the key of your tuning. The drawback of course is that to take full advantage of the open strings in multiple keys, you need multiple necks or multiple instruments. Thus, we have quadneck lap steels; and I have seen pictures of Jerry Douglas on stage with six or more Dobros sitting behind him on stands.

As for slants, some people use almost none, and others have developed it to a high art. I believe I read on here that Don Helms (a legend in the '50s - played with Hank Williams) used almost no slants (if it wasn't Don it was Leon McAuliff). On the other hand, Jerry Byrd (arguably the greatest no-peddler of all time) was a sublime master of slants. It seems impossible at first, but most experienced players eventually develop some facility with slants. Pedal steel of course was developed to further eliminate the need for slants. But even many pedalers use some slants.

You just have much richer harmony possibilities with open tunings. I like straight open tunings for bluegrass and blues. For jazz and swing, you really need a 6th tuning. The beauty of the 6th tuning is not just that you get that extra note for 6th chords, but that you get both a major and minor triad. You also get a IVmaj7 triad. And you get all these closed triads without slants. Some 6th tunings also have the 4th note of the scale, which gives you a IV9 triad without a slant. Using open diads and triads you can get many chords without slants. The Spanish tuning is a 6th tuning, but it does not have the optimum inversions and versatility of a full 6th open tuning. I think if you try an open tuning for awhile, you will find that you have many more triad and diad possibilities without slants than in the Spanish tuning.

Bob Stone · From: Gainesville, FL, USA

A lot of good points have been made here.

To me, one of the really handy things about C6 (CEGACE) is that you have the intervals of a second, minor third, and major third stacked on the top four strings. Handy for harmony as well as for intervals within a melody. The interval of a second facilitates some quick picking without having to make a two fret leap.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

quote:
Why would you WANT to have to slant?

I'm guessing it the sound of sliding out of a slant to a straight bar landing in an inversion of the original slanted chord?

Slantin' is primarily used (needed) to allow for a melody line to be harmonized, while remaining "unbroken" ... i.e to stay on the same string combination(s) as you move "seemlessly" from one chord (or chord partial) to another.

This is the "hallmark" sound of the Hawaiian Steel Guitar.

Seemlessly moving from Major to Minor Third intervals and from Major to Minor Sixth intervals ... and visa versa ...

Seemlessly resolving tension ... say from a V7 to I .

Thats what slantin' is all about.

Listen to some of the masters of slant bar technique ... it's nearly impossible to tell what is a straight bar combination vs a slant bar combination ...

On rare occasions .. it can be desirable to "hear" the slant as an "effect" ... but not often.

As always, the style or type of music you wish to play ... dictates the various "techniques" you need to use ...

Hope that helps explain why folks slant ...

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Dustpans LTD.
The Casteels
HSGA

Roy Thomson · From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada

In my undernoted link I have taken the
standard guitar tuning and just dropped the
"D" fourth string to C#.
This is done on a T Logo Ricky using
D'Addario Electric Guitar strings. .012-.052
You can play the blues all night and forget all the other tunings....for a little while
anyway.

http://freefilehosting.net/?id=rdn9k6zQ/Q==

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Good move Roy. You can also slant this and get a nice 9th chord.

Also with standard tuning, you can guage the G string a little light so you can pull it up 1/2 step behind the bar. Gives you a great 7th chord for all your blues stuff. Leave out the 4th string and you have a major chord with a nice low bass note.

Pull up the B string behind the bar and you have a nice open sounding fourths thing that works with lots of jazz stuff.

I have a lap steel I made with the ability to raise two strings and drop one. Just being able to raise the G to G# and raise the B to C and lower the D to Db opens up a lot of chord things. Nice for me to be able to see the guitar tuning I am so familiar with for melodies and then be able to play some chord stuff.

I also have a 10 string lap with a low B and then EADGBE then a D and F# and on the very top is the G# a 1/2 step above the G. It is a very versatile tuning for rock and blues.

In days gone by there was a lot more custom tunings done by players to give them their own voice and make them different from other steelers. I like to hear of tunings that are different.

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 06 September 2006 at 06:03 PM.]

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 06 September 2006 at 06:04 PM.]

Roy Thomson · From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada

Hi Bill,

The standard tuning with the D dropped to C#
gives the A9th chord automatically. That's the name of the tuning. No slant necessary.
Maybe I misunderstood your opening statement?

The pulls behind the bar I am onto them. My
ring finger of the left hand knows all
about it.

My string guages are "light"
and work well. I have an experimental 8 stringer and I add two chromatic strings on
the top and things really open up. As you say
with pedals the possibilities become
unlimited.

I am glad there are two of us working on this. It will be interesting to see who
goes crazy first.

I respect your musicianship very much indeed.
We need more sound clips of your playingwhen you get the time.

Many thanks.

Roy

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Thanks Roy. May I clarify. I meant that in order to get the cool chord that you get by dropping the D 1/2 step that a player who is in standard tuning has to slant that note. Also I added the behind the bar pull info for others to think about. I know that you do that so well.

You will probably always outdo everybody with recording your steel stuff that you come up with. Man you must spend a lot of time up there having fun with tunings and recording and such. It always shows in the things you post on the forum. I never have enough time to work at it just trying to make a living gigging and such. Lot's of ideas and not enough time to put them into use. I will get around to it maybe when Halleys Comet comes back!! Thanks for the encouragement.

I got a call to play a Broadway show in Nov. called "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels". Anybody here ever played it?? The contractor says to bring a lap steel as there is a tune in the show that calls for it! Looking forward to that.

Roy Thomson · From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada

Well I guess I will just have to go to Atlanta, Georgia.

I have worked this idea ( standard guitar ) tuning in the past. It is great for fingerstyle and just playing good old tick tock on the bass. In the clip below I use the
chromatic strings on top and some pedals. http://www.freefilehosting.net/?id=rdn9k63R9w==

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Roy. I am having trouble opening your files on the server you are using. They won't play in Media Play at all.

Dan Sawyer · From: Studio City, California, USA

Bill, i just saw Dirty Rotten Scoundrels here in LA a couple of weeks ago. They had a 12 piece band and i could see that it included a guitarist, but i never did hear anything except rhythm guitar (strat).

By the way, are you still planning to sell any of your pitch changing steels?

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Thanks for the info on the show Dan.

In regards to the lap with a home made changer on it, I don't think so.

James Mayer · Posted 7 Sep 2006 7:43 am

Ok, thank you all for convincing me. Most of this stuff won't make much sense to me until I hear it. I'm leaning towards making my second neck a C6 and keeping my first neck as my spanish security blanket. I figure C6 is good for all the reasons I've heard plus there are plenty of people on this forum that can help me with it down the road.

Thanks again,

James

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