| Author |
Topic: Weird copedent... |
Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2008 9:34 pm |
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Okay folks, I decided to make this a new topic from the E major thread...
My ax is an Emmons setup right up until we get to LKR. Just to be clear, my tuning is F# D# G# E B G# F# E D B high to low. P1 raises 5&10 to C# - P2 raises 3&6 to A - P3 raises 4 to F# & 5 to C# so far so good. LKL raises 4&8 to F - LKV lowers 5 & 10 to A# still on track with Buddy's setup, but now LKR SWAPS 1&6 so 1 is raised to G# and 6 is lowered to F# - huh? RKL lowers 4 to D# - RKR lowers 2 to D/C# and lowers 9 to C#/C huh?
So, everything after LKV makes no @#$%^& sense to me, nor can I find it in anyone else's copedent I've seen online. I printed out a bunch of 'em for comparison, too.
So, what's the best advice? I could change the RKR to D/C# on 2 and just C# on 9 (instead of C#/C as it is now) easy enough. But, why the "extra" D# (RKL) on str 4 and the LKR swap has me baffled... HALP!!!
Best regards,
...z 
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
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Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 9:13 am
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| Quote: |
| but now LKR SWAPS 1&6 so 1 is raised to G# and 6 is lowered to F# - huh? RKL lowers 4 to D# - RKR lowers 2 to D/C# and lowers 9 to C#/C huh? |
LKR is the "Amen" change, used with E's to D# (Eb) and the G# on top would be the 6th of the chord.
RKR gives C# which is the 6th of the open E. Pedal A (B->C#) changes the open E chord to C#- and you no longer have the B and C# notes available at the same time.
I normally tune my 9th string to C# and I have RKR bring it back to D at the same time it lowers 2nd string D# to D. Having C# on the 9th string opens up the bottom strings for more runs. |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 10:09 am
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Thanks Chas, I need to study that for a bit and decide if that's what I want. So far, I've just run into that LKR not working for a video "lesson" once or twice. The other changes haven't come up yet and I need to determine as you did, what's going to make the most sense for what I play. It's just that on first glance, then a close look, it made no sense. I'd like to have some chords like 67b9 and 69b5 but as often as I use those as transitions on 6 string, I might be able to cover them with partials on the steel.
Essentially, I want to play mellow funk stuff and also use the steel as a string section and/or horn section, and of course do some unique to steel single note solo stuff. I just thought it would be a good idea to study what's come from the greats who invented this ax, first.
Thanks again,
...z
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 10:48 am
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There is really nothing wierd about your copedent. All the changes you mention are pretty standard and used by thousands of players. The only wierd thing I see is the 9th string. While it's very common for people to lower the D to C#, I don't think I have ever seen a half stop on the 9th string lowering the D to C# and then to C. Doesn't mean it's not a viable change though. Just never seen it.
RKL should also lower string 8 from E to D#
More stuff:
Using the E to D# change along with the 6th string G# to F# change gives you a major chord using string 4,5,6,(7),8,10. Say you have a D chord on fret 5 with the A & B pedals, if you use the E to D# change and the 6th string lower to F#, you have a D major there 2 frets down on fret 3. Watch some of the youtube videos or look at some of the tab from John Hughey and Buddy Emmons and you'll see this combination used quite often. If you let off the lever on string six (still holding the E to D# lever) you get a sixth tone on string 6. Press you B pedal raising string 6 a half step and you now have a b7th tone. This is a nice transition from a major to a dom 7th chord.
| Tab: |
open
F#
D#
G#
E 5____3L_____3L____3L
B 5a___3______3_____3
G# 5b___3LL____3_____3b
F#
E
D
B
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This moves you from a D chord to a D7th. Knee levers are noted in tab using L for a half step lower, LL for a full step lower. You can play this by picking the strings once on the 5th fret and sliding to fret 3 and let the strings ring while making the movement on string 6. Or you can pick them at each change.
The raise on string 1 gives you a unison note with string 3. Paul Franklin made this famous on many recordings (as well as other studio players). It's pretty much just a "lick" change. If you added the second string raised to E on that lever, you would add some chordal possibilities.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 1:48 pm
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| Quote: |
| chords like 67b9 and 69b5 but as often as I use those as transitions on 6 string, I might be able to cover them with partials on the steel. |
Those kinds of chords work well on piano and 6 string, when it's strummed, but on the steel, typically you're picking 3 and 4 note chords at any given time. The 69b5 of a C chord would be A, D, F#, a #11 chord (my favorite) depending on the 7th, if there is one. You'll probably have to get them by voice leading the chords around.
| Quote: |
| Essentially, I want to play mellow funk stuff and also use the steel as a string section and/or horn section, and of course do some unique to steel single note solo stuff. |
The E9 neck is ideal for the string section stuff. If you're doing funk or horn sections, you may want to move down to the C6 neck, use 4 picks and concentrate on pedals 5 and 6, while moving the bar around. A bunch of years ago, I ended up sitting in with a R&B/world beat meets Reggae kind of band on a stage at the Burning Man Festival. I can do the horn stabs on the C6 neck and a "fair" interpretation of the bubble, for the reggae stuff, as well as comp around.
| Quote: |
| I just thought it would be a good idea to study what's come from the greats who invented this ax, first. |
You can't go wrong with that. I remain in awe of those guys. |
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 4:09 pm
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Zeke-
Keep in mind the 6th string and 1st string pulls would not be used together.
You didn't say if your Emmons is P/P or a LeGrande (all-pull). If it's all-pull, you can set up a split on string 6, so that LKR plus the B pedal gives you a G natural, very useful.
If RKL lowers 4 to D#, it would usually do the same for 8.
Last edited by Dean Parks on 28 Apr 2008 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 4:11 pm
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Wow, thanks both Chas & Richard! That's a bit to chew on, I just got done checking out how to jam with some loops I made to jam 6 string with, mostly m7 based and all I seem to be able to do at the moment is find relative majors and play a sh*tload of wrong notes in the mix. And no, that ain't jazz, not what's coming out of the mess just now. =8|
I can at least now see how what's there could be used, even that low C as a passing tone. But, the single change on the RKL isn't very useful and it seems the lower string as suggested would be, in my uneducated opinion for now...
I'll keep looking at Mickey's videos and trying to play along with him as far as I can with my setup (he sent me his copedent and it's quite different from mine, I think more of a Jimmy Day setup without actually looking at both, which aren't right in front of me now). I can manage figuring out what pedal/lever to use by ear, and it's cool since there's nothing I have to unlearn in the process. But, thanks to you guys, I can push on without fear of creating something I WOULD have to unlearn. That's really all I wanted to avoid in the first place. 
Thanks yet again,
...z
The trouble with doing something right the first time
is nobody appreciates how difficult it was...
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 4:26 pm
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| Dean Parks wrote: |
Keep in mind the 6th string and 1st string pulls would not be used together.
You didn't say if your Emmons is P/P or a LeGrande (all-pull). If it's all-pull, you can set up a split on string 6, so that LKR plus the B pedal gives you a G natural, very useful.
If RKL lowers 4 to D#, it would usually do the same for 8. |
Hey Dean,
It's a Remington Steel guitar, Dave O'Brien (who I got it from) said it's Emmons pedals and Sho-Bud knees. I can't find anything about Sho-Bud knees, and since only one is used on the C6 neck, I worried more about what's happening on the E9 neck. It's all-pull, triple raise, triple lower. 8x5
The C6 setup seems perfectly logical and intuitive to me, but the E9 is throwing some curves, stuff not being where I thought it would be and the concept barely making sense, initially. Although, it makes a lot more sense now, with some tips and patience. If I really miss that RKL change on 8, I should be able to add it and the split you mentioned with some bent welding rod, right? I don't want to deal with that at the moment, but I do have a lot of welding rod in the garage.
Best regards,
...z
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 4:39 pm
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| Quote: |
| and since only one is used on the C6 neck, |
That one is probably 3rd string C->B and there's your b5 with pedal 6.
The "Sho-Bud knees" refers to the RKL E->Eb which is easier to manufacture than E->Eb on LKR, where it should be, according to me. When it's there, your left leg is doing the majority of the pedal/knee work and the right leg can concentrate on the volume pedal. The E->Eb change happens a lot and unless you are the Baryshnikov (sp?) of the volume pedal, it's going to be a problem.
I'm assuming you'll be using 308 welding rod. |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2008 5:12 pm
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| chas smith wrote: |
| Quote: |
| and since only one is used on the C6 neck, |
That one is probably 3rd string C->B and there's your b5 with pedal 6. |
It is.
| chas smith wrote: |
| The "Sho-Bud knees" refers to the RKL E->Eb which is easier to manufacture than E->Eb on LKR, where it should be, according to me. When it's there, your left leg is doing the majority of the pedal/knee work and the right leg can concentrate on the volume pedal. The E->Eb change happens a lot and unless you are the Baryshnikov (sp?) of the volume pedal, it's going to be a problem. |
Well, that makes a load of sense too. I suppose it would be a big hassle not worth it to try to swap that to LKR since there's only one string on it now anyway? I have to admit, I have a dyslexia problem when working with this kind of thing, so I should probably leave it alone and just work with it.
| chas smith wrote: |
| I'm assuming you'll be using 308 welding rod. |
I'd just use the ol' calibrated eyeball, haven't used any of that stuff in decades, but it doesn't rust in Colorado and this is stuff my dad brought into town from the farm in 1960, a lot of brass, too, Still have the oxy/acetelene tanks about 2/3 full, too... Wanna buy it? 
Best regards,
...z
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 29 Apr 2008 4:53 pm
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Just holler if you need any other info. Most everyone here is glad to help.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2008 5:36 pm PARTS IS PARTS
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Thanks Richard,
I just discovered that the 8th string's RKL nylon nut is mostly stripped. No wonder it wasn't working. I got it in tune, but it took many, many turns, and it slipped back several times. It's holding for the moment, but it should be replaced.
So, I need a source for those things, they're the standard 3/16" size, and I know several others are loose and feel on the verge, as well. If I take them off to replace them, there's no spring loaded anything going to pop out is there? I'm going to go over this thing with a fine tooth comb and clean and lube it thoroughly soon, too. It's a little more "clanky" than I'd expect, so a tuneup is likely in order, regardless. Do you know of a reasonably priced parts source? I found Seymour's prices excessive, IMO...
Oh, Dave said the undercarriage is "like a Fessenden."
Best regards,
...Z
"Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them."
-Albert Einstein
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2008 5:41 pm
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| Just wanted to point out that having the 4 (and 8) lower to D# on the RKL is not just a manufacturer's shortcut. There are a good many players (I'm one) who prefer that change on the right knee for playing reasons. |
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Drew Howard
From:
48854
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Posted 29 Apr 2008 6:43 pm
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Zeek,
I have a friend in Longmont name of Joe Breher, known as Joe Bear, he's a guitarist with the Usual Suspects and with Lee Thomas. Know him?
thanks,
Drew |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2008 6:57 pm
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| Drew Howard wrote: |
Zeek,
I have a friend in Longmont name of Joe Breher, known as Joe Bear, he's a guitarist with the Usual Suspects and with Lee Thomas. Know him? |
Hi Drew,
No, sorry to say... I've seen the band billed as playing in town and Boulder, but didn't attend. I don't go out much anymore, unless I know someone. If I do catch them, "Joe Bear" will sure trip a trigger and I'll say hi to him for ya. Lee Thomas I don't know, either. I'm just an old fart, man.
Later,
...z
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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