Is MORE Better?

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Of course not! Trying to decide when you've had enough of whatever is the trick. There are many foods, drinks, habits, etc., that the average person has difficulty in modifying.. The main issue here is directed at the glut of knee levers and pedals on steel guitars. Other than providing a reflection of one's musical expressions, additional changes contribute to varying degrees of confusion. Bar slides may prove to be more useful, in future explorations of ultimate tones. This is not a mechanical issue. It points to personal whims.

Don Poland · From: Hanover, PA.

I only have 5 but does it mean that because YOU think it is glut that everyone else shouldn't have them?

I say, to each their own. Don't listen to their music if you don't like it.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Ah, but bar slides won't necessarily give you the desired chord voicings...

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Don.

You may be surprised to learn that the majority of players DO NOT use your setup in its entirety. I appreciate your responses, but the chances are slim that would allow me to concur with such misgivings. I had mentioned "glut" as the word of choice, for many reasons. It's something like piling more food on your dish than you can swallow.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Jim C.,

I realize your capacity as a front runner in the quest for perfection. However, would you please come out on a platform from behind the curtain of knowledge. You could offer much for those who procrastinate in the art of utilizing pedal and knee levers changes. How many A&B pedal players have you met? Too many to recall, I'm sure. Don had written that he has 5 basic changes, at least I'd imagine the 5th add is the 5th half and full tone lower. These are basic changes found in most steel guitars. Then there are those who will not be satisfied. The "glut" has transcended into more than one player can "handle". I believe that most of the polished musical expressions are produced by the pedal actions. By now, most players are aware of builders who will install 10 or 12 knee levers, placed beneath a double 14 with two separate tunings. Is this not "glut"?

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

Bill,

A glut of pedals and knee levers can be very confusing if you are playing someone elses guitar.

"Bar slides" only get you from point A to point B but once there, chord voicings become somewhat limted with forward/reverse bar slants and a limited amount of pedals/knees.

Multiple pedals and knee levers make possible complex chord structures in a given area while limiting chordal inaccuracies that result from using bar slide/slants over wider grips.

Expression on the other hand is enhanced to some degree by the use of this hardware but in my opinion, it is acheived more by the player's ability than by the shear number of pedals/knees.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Dick W.,

I must remind you that COMPLEX CHORD STRUCTURES are not useful in the bulk of any "country" music that has been written to date. Some of the new "stuff" is progammed to demonstrate some of of the chord changes that you have suggested should be available on the steel. I went through a period of practicing with a guitarist who had "chord wisdom" to spare. These changes may be nothing more than alternate chords containing only some of the true melody notes in a triad frame.

Antolina · From: Dunkirk NY

I'm probably the least qualified to chime in here but FWIW, this is my take on the subject.

I recall Jeff Newman saying, "you don't need extra knee levers. All the notes you need are already there". Be in as it may, when I had my Bud set up, I had all four levers installed with all the appropriate raises and lowers. I still don't use most of what's available but hope for the day when I'll be able to. Most of my playing utilizes the E raises and lowers and I recall a recent thread where a good many players voiced that same sentiment. So in my own case I shamefully admit that my egeo goes on the line when I look over and see the full rack... at least at this stage of my musical development. Heck, I may go to my maker not using all of what's available but at least they're there and if I ever choose to sell it, the value of my guitar has hopefully appreciated.

Bill, IMHO, this is one of your better threads. I'll be p[aying close attention to the responses.

Thank you.
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RC Antolina

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

When pedals were first introduced on steel guitar.....
they were utilized to give you that straight bar, full chord, that would not have otherwise been possible.
Any more however, the theme seems to be.....the player 'must' smash every pedal on the guitar at least once in each and every measure in order to consider oneself a pedal steel guitarist.
A lot of mechanical efforts have seemed to overcome.....the purpose behind the desired pedal change.
Too much of anything, can simply be, "TOO MUCH".

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

RC Antolina,

By all means, I must thank you for sharing some of your musical experiences. A whole lot depends on how your first approaches to becoming a steel guitarist occurred. Musical tastes combined with external influences, determine the speed of developing skillful knee lever usages. Adapting to their usefulness in terms of success, depends on oodles of dedication in the practice room. A lot of people prefer to follow leaders like the late Jeff Newman. Jeff surprised many by playing a score of country tunes with just one knee lever, and 3 pedals. I saw him jam with Herb Remington and Hal Rugg in '92 in Armonk, N.Y., at the P.S.G.A. Inc. annual steel show. It was fun to watch as Herb introduced bar slants galore combined with his special tuning. I really am not that impressed with the standard knee setups. There are many other possibilities that suggest further study would be useful in promoting widespread knee lever usages.

Antolina · From: Dunkirk NY

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

Bill, I don't know whether it is your efforts or mine that are to blame but I'm having a much easier time getting the meaning of your posts lately. This has been a central issue for steel guitarists since pedals were invented. You may have noticed that there is a section here on the forum marked, "Steel Without Pedals." Even one pedal or knee lever would be too many for some of us. There are others for whom even the console is too much. A lap guitar is all they'll deal with. I like things to be as simple as possible, myself. But I certainly can't knock pedal players like John Hughey, the big E or Lloyd Green. Viva la difference.
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Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

RC Antolina,

I'd be delighted to expound on specific weaknesses and strengths of the 5 knee lever setups. Most of the preferred locations that differ somewhat, involves the 4th and 8th string lowers. I can't imagine why players would prefer those two lowers on the right leg. It doesn't seem to affect their total sound as much as one might think. Those two strings are involved as root notes of a scale, and are compatible with the raises and lowers in combination with the LEFT leg movement. I think P.F. is a leader in chord improvisation. He's constantly groping and breaking speed barriers. More recently, there has been a fair amount of hype that focuses on the 5th and 6th string lowers. At the same time the full tone raise of the 1st. string has struck the fancy of many who have found several uses for the change. A few players totally ignore the 7th string raise. I'd prefer raising the 1st and 7th on the LKV, than sharing that lever with the 5th string lower, as so many do. The double lowering of the second string is another weak point in standard setups.

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Bill, I have to agree with you on this one. A glut of knee levers and pedals is unnecessary, and sometimes counterproductive IMHO. I have never had more than 4 knee levers on a pedal steel guitar. A lot of our heroes had very few pedals/levers on their guitars. Lloyd Green never lowered his 4th string (E), and Jerry Byrd had No pedals or levers. The sounds are in the guitar, and a creative player will find ways to get the sounds.
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Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Jim C.,

Please, no juggling easy to read implications. Alvino Rey (so I've heard) was the most influential chord player to strum a steel guitar. This thread is a by-product of an overwhelming list of threads that confuse real issues. As far as types of music, be it jazz, country, rock, old standards, classic waltzes, etc., no matter, suffice it to say, all discussions are found to be interesting. If your designated programming is too far-fetched, as is implied, please allow me to remind you Jim, that glut is "glut".

Pete Finney · From: Nashville Tn.

It seems to me that if you think there's a "glut" of pedals or knee-levers on your own guitar then you should change it. But I can't see why what other people choose to have on their own instruments should concern you, unless you're genuinely curious to learn about different approaches. (I'm sorry but to me there's no sign of that here, just you passing judgement about whether other's choices are as wise as yours).

Just as an example: I'm fortunate to get to see Paul Franklin play a lot, in a lot of different musical settings; as far as I can tell by your standards you think he should get rid of some of his "glut" of pedals and knee levers and maybe just slide the bar more. He could obviously play great stuff with no pedals at all but I do believe they're all there for a reason; for him to be able to play musical ideas he hears and have combinations of tones that he couldn't have otherwise. Of course lots of people have and will play great music without those changes (or with no pedals at all) but it seems foolish to suggest that we should somehow limit those who choose to play new and different things with different changes. That IS one of the unique fascinating things about "our' instrument after all, isn't it; how it continues to evolve?

FWIW I personally have always used a pretty basic set-up, but it hasn't kept me from appreciating what others can do with different set-ups. I also happen to think that no one has ever played a steel guitar "better" than, say, Jerry Byrd; just brought different things to it. And sorry, but I think that's a good thing...

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

quote:

"A lot of our heroes had very few pedals/levers on their guitars"

Well, two of my main heros are Paul Franklin and Jimmie Crawford--Paul plays a 9x9 and Jimmie played a 10x10.

My guitars are loaded with a Crawford setup--I use them when needed, and feel they are a plus to my playing...

Different strokes....
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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

There is, IMO, not such thing as pedal/lever "glut", nor are there "too few" at the other end of the spectrum.

For the E9 player, 3+1 (aka the Maverick setup) might be plenty; or 4+11; or 6+5...

It simply doesn't matter to ANYONE else but that player. Whatever works for him and he feels comfortable with is right.

Why would anyone care how many pedals, knees, wrist levers or whatever another player has? If it works for him, personally I don't think it's polite nor any of your business to tell him he has too many changes.

I play a 9+2 8-string and a 3+4(+4 splits) 10 string - and I couldn't care less if you or anyone else thinks there are too many or too few changes - they work for me.
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Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Pete F.,

30 years ago P.F. taught P.S.G. by tab and instructions. B.E. offered lessons on a LP recording. I'm quite sure that the changes needed to play their selections were quite minimal by today's standards. As this MORE is better theme commenced to dominate worldly patterns of inducements, both giants of the industry, remained in top positions, progressing unflinchingly in the faces of all who would meet their challenges of leadership. Pete, would you by chance know the number of knee levers either of the two had in 1980? (B.E. & P.F.) This would help to explain why it took so long to make changes involving Knee lever changes.

Jeff Garden · From: Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA

To each his own, Bill. I seem to remember Jeff Newman telling us, "you paid a lot of money for those pedals and knee levers - might as well get some use out of 'em." I don't know about other folks, but I get a great deal of enjoyment on the C6th neck working my way through majors, minors, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, and everything in between with pedals and knees and minimal bar movement. Nothing more rewarding than finally finding a combination that gives you that one sweet chord and saying out loud, "nice!".

Mark Eaton · Posted 3 Apr 2008 12:18 pm

I dug this one out of a thread involving the "death of C6th" from last year. I don't have nearly the experience on the pedals that most of the folks have in this discussion, so I'm not qualified to make any judgments in this current thread started by Bill, but I think Lloyd's comment below re "avoiding thinking" is pretty interesting.

Not that what Lloyd says is the be-all and end-all to any discussions of this nature, but I figure that I could take everything he says as "gospel" and be in pretty good shape!

Regardless, it is some great food for thought.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Wow! Bill, I'm impressed. Seriously! Like a few others have said. For the first time, I'm actually able to comprehend your question/s. Thanks!

Well, before I retired, I simply stuck with the original 1968 setup that was on my double 10 pedal steel. 8 X 4, and it's therefore that I kept up to what was being played regardless. With that being said, I never felt outdated, nor that I needed anything more than what I had.

Now, that I'm (both) retired and tired, I'm starting more and more to feel as if I'd like to buy another that has a full house of every combination that's available. Why is that? I honestly don't know myself at this point. Maybe it's to see just how much easier it might be to get places that were a bit less convenient, during my playing days? See! I still don't really know the reason.

It's certainly not to keep up to the Jones's, as thats never been one of my things. So from what I can gather, it's like this (or may be?).

You can get in a cage with a standard three or four speed transmission, and get to where you're going. Shifting through all the gears at each and every stop street, or what have you. But on the other hand, you can have a cage with automatic transmission, and don't have to go through all of that to take off. Step down on the pedal, and bingo you're there.

Now my only question remains: Just what brand of pedal steel is REALLY the best out there with what I want? And that's a question that can never or will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction. Simply because when it comes right down to it, we all like something different. What one person feels is the best, another may feel is the worst, and vice versa.

And right there is also the answer to your question. It comes down to what each of us feels is best for him or her..

Anyway, thanks again for writing in such a way that allows us all to comprehend exactly what your question happens to be.

Don Cool

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Bill, with all due respect, what if I choose to use all of the changes I have on MY Steel and use Bar slants when I choose ?

There are many many instances where a single string pull within' a multiple note sustained chord cannot be achieved with a bar slant.

At the end of the day it's the music that matters, not how you got to it. Would it be wise to KNOW that a slant can be used ? Sure. Does it mean you MUST use one ? No.

I have 5 E9th knee levers with 10 pulls between them. Early on I was not a wise man and just carried them around without understanding there use, not so today. I use them , I enjoy them and I choose to use them.

After all, this is a PEDAL STEEL GUITAR .

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

In my own case, the number of pedals and KLs has grown (now to 9+8 ) largely as a result of discussions with other players telling me about 'this cool change' or by listening to someone who's playing I admire (e.g. Doug Jernigan, Randy Beavers) and hearing changes that I didn't know how to get any other way than by adding the pedal or KL.

Having said that, I was always dumbstruck every year at the TSGA listening to Tommy Morrell and what he could do with his nonpedal steel (was it 8 string? 10 string? Doesn't really matter.) He was getting all kinds of voicings that I swear were just not on my axe! And he didn't need any dang pedals or KLs to get them.

(Oh, but I did see one time that he had this cute little lock-lever on his guitar. But the main point remains that, with essentially no pedals or KLs, he could play circles around virtually anybody alive.) Oh Well

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