Carter Finger Problem

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I have been having a problem for about 6 months now on my 1999 Carter D10. The 5th string on my C6th neck, I have been noticing that after lowering the G to F#, it returns sharp (never used to do it). I notice that the finger doesn't pull back to the "home" position. It stops about 1/32" from full return. I can push it back with my finger. I would think if the finger didn't return all the way, that the string would end up flat.

What I have done so Far:

1. Thinking the return spring was not strong enough, I switched it with 2 other springs from different strings and had that same problem. I'm a little gunshy about cutting loops off my spring to increase tension.

2. Lubed guitar.

3. Checked all linkage for binding. None.

4. Loosened the string. Activated the finger by pulling on the rod that activates it. Finger returns fully when string is not in the equation. Bring the string to pitch and problem is back. Also tried this with the spring removed. Activated finger by hand and there seems to be no binding in the finger.

5. I'm now on my 3rd set of strings (Jagwires) since the problem started, so I don't think it is a bad string.

6. While string was loose, checked roller nut for drag. None.

Am I missing something? It looks like a weak spring but swapping it with others that seem to be good makes me think not.

As an aside, it is not that far out of tune and I can get by with it, but I would like it fixed.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

I'm just fishing here, but do you by any chance also lower that 5th string to F?

I have a '99 D10 too, and I noticed that when I added additional pulls on the C6th, I started getting a little of what you describe on the 4th and 3rd, although not on the 5th (I didn't add a pull there). I added a raise and lower on the 4th and an additional raise on the 3rd.

I also tried 3 of the remedies you did - lubing changer, roller nut, and checked for binding; none "healed" the problem. So far I've sort of shrugged it off as something the guitar wasn't originally set up for or hysteresis, but I don't really know.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Could it be a rivet?
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

If you can push the finger back with your finger and no rods from that finger or adjacent to the finger are binding, it is not inconceivable that, in a 9 year old guitar, the return springs have stretched and removing a loop or two will solve your problem (really not a big deal). You might call Bud or John at the shop.

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

One thing I forgot Richard - with the added pulls I mentioned, some of the additional pull rods rub together without exactly binding, but place a little additional friction on the return spring action.

I found a few of these on my setup and cleaned the rub areas and lubed with some lithium grease. This did help the action and lessened the problem in my case. Hope this might help.

bk

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Bob... I do lower the string to F also. But, the 2 rods for that string don't seem to touch each other. I will look again or have a friend with better eyesite than mine help me look. I forgot to mention that I took the G to F# lower rod out of the pull bar (bellcrank as we used to call them) and pulled it by hand. Same results.

Stu, as far as a rivet, I don't know. It's hard for me to see. It seems to look the same as all the others. It is like the the 2 plates that are riveted together stick. I seperated them slightly to get oil in between them, but it didn't help.

Jim, I'm afraid that the spring will be the answer (although other springs I tried did the same). When you cut down a spring, do you just cut the loop that hooks to the finger and bend the next loop down to form a new loop? I think I will order a new spring from Carter as a backup in case I screw up this one. Can't afford to have the guitar down. It doesn't hurt to have spare parts on hand.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

Richard... Did you lube the top rivet on the changer finger? Dollar to donuts if nothing else is binding, that is the problem. The top rivet will cause more binding than the bottom rivet. Give it a shot..

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Richard,The only reason that I suggested rivet was because I had a similar problem on Carter and John said it was the rivet,I sent it back and he fixed it and then it was like new,Stu Winking

_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Jim Bob, I have lubed the rivet (there is only the one that holds the 2 plates -Raise and lower- together). Also lubed between the plates. Lubed the axel where the finger pivots (where the string mounts).

Stu, How do you tell if it is the rivet? That does seem like the place it would bind. What was the fix? A new finger? Unfortunately, this is my only guitar and can't do without it long enough to send it back to Carter.

I hate to bug John and Bud, but may give them a call. It is a problem I can live with. When I tune that string, I just keep hitting the pedal until the string seems to stabilize. I tune the G with the finger in the stuck position and go from there. So far is has worked OK. But knowing there is a problem still bugs me.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Bob Cox · From: Buckeye State

Slide a hacksaw blade between the fingers near rivot.This will realign fingers creating space
for it to return 100%.This is not a permanent fix but it will give you an idea of what the hangup is.
It could be the raise is to tight on that string and needs slack.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Richard, All the above. But also back off the rod for the F lower and see what happens.If it's not the problem. As Jim advised.Remove a loop or 2 from the lower return spring.....bb

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

To cut a loop off of the spring I just use a healthy pair of side cutters and usually take a couple loops. Then take the same side cutters and squeeze a titch between the last loop and the 2nd to the last loop to open it up a bit. I then take about an 1/8" allen wrench and insert it between the last loop and slide it down the rest of the spring so that the loop can now be bent and you can hold the rest of the spring solidly.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

Richard, unless the Carter finger is different from every other all pull changer, there is a top rivet, located very close to the top of the changer finger. You can't see it easily. It takes a long needle to reach it. Check Greg Cutshaw's website. He has an excellent tutorial on there about lubricating the guitar. Each finger has the rivet you are talking about, and another rivet higher up.

ken collins · From: Oklahoma City, OK.

If it's returning sharp, it's not the return spring nor from binding with the rods. It would not return sharp if the spring were weak. I think either the nut roller is not free or the rivet as mentioned. I'm sure the guage of the string is a #20 or #22 plain just for a double check. Ken

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Jim Bob,

Only the one rivet where where the fingers pivot. It is just below the head of the finger that the string attaches to and rotates. On the Carter, you can see the complete finger by looking from the bottom of the guitar (you can see all the way to the rotating head), through the end plate opening, and from the space in the top of the guitar where you attach the strings. I will check Gregs site.

Ken,

The roller nut is free and well oiled. The 5th string on the C6th (G string) is actually a wound string, .024w. Same as what Carter originally put on the guitar.

Bob Cox,

While I didn't use a hacksaw blade, I can put sideways pressure on the lower plate and seperate the two plates enough to get oil in. I pressed a little harder and could see the oil migrating to the rivet. No raise on that string.

Good news is that after seperating the finger plates a little wider than I usually do when I oil the guitar, it seems to have helped. So, I think that the rivet is the likely culprit. I will set up the guitar in the morning and run it through some tests to see if it helped.

I really appreciate the help guys. Thanks.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

ken collins · From: Oklahoma City, OK.

Richard, Sorry, I didn't notice you were speaking of the C6th. I would check the nylon tuner and make sure it has some slack before engaging. I personally use a 26W because it takes less travel than the 24W and does not make the move any harder. Some guitars, like my Super-Pro, will stretch the lowering spring a mile with 24W in order to drop a full tone. Again, sorry for the misread, Ken

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

Thanks John. I have no claim to being an expert. I have disassembled a Sho-Bud and a Williams changer and they are like the second drawing, using two rivets. I stand corrected. I was just trying to help. As Emily Latella used to say on Saturday Night Live....... Never Mind

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

ken collins · From: Oklahoma City, OK.

Scott, Your exactly correct. Excuse, I'm getting older and speaking to quickly. I think every guitar I've ever had will be slightly sharp after lowering. If it's excessive that's different. Some, like Zum, have compensators to adjust that out of it. I never used those because it seemed to need frequent re adjusting. Thanks. Ken

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

tune it up try doing the pull ( without the rod on the pedal) if it comes back to normal then its a pedal thing. just one more thing of trouble shooting. I had a pedal mess with me once adjustment on the rod itself was the cause

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

All of my testing has been without the use of pedals. Didn't even have the pedal bar attached, so I can rule out the pedal. I either grab the pull rod and pull it or stick a nut driver on the nylon tuning nut and push. This also eliminated the cross rod from the equation.

Plenty of slack on the pull rods. Maybe even too much on the G to F pull.

I didn't get a chance to set up the guitar and see if it is fixed this morning. I have a bad case of strep throat (going on 5 days and getting worse) and decided I needed a trip to the doctor more than the guitar.

No problem Ken and Jim Bob. Your input was welcomed and did make me think. The .026 wound sounds like a good idea. The full tone drop is a bit long on travel. May have to give it a try.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

First things first...

Remove both the string and the lowering spring - to see if the fingers are binding or jammed (with a string end). Without a spring or a string on, they should both flop back and forth very easily.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Donny, I just tried that again today and everything seems fine.

I decided to try the spring cutting thing. Took 2 loops off. Finger returns all the way but now comes back flat or sharp (both). I find if I push on the changer finger where the string mounts, it comes back in tune.

I'll call Carter Friday. I think the finger is shot.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Richard, When it returns flat. Reach under the guitar and push back on the finger. If you can push it back? The spring is still to loose....bb

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic