Definition of "Hawaiian" Music, please.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Because I think the subject matter is important and quite eductional ...and I would like to learn from it continuing to be discussed; I have posted this new discussion to continue another discussion chain whose author kindly and respectrully suggested discussions of this off-topic nature be ceased there.

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I keep a Pahu Ko-ele (hollowed / slotted log drum) handy in my shop to casually tap my fingers on when / while a few Locals here attempt to lay an indigenous Hawaiian claim upon melodic / "pathagorian"-based music played in Hawaii on melodic instruments, none of which existed in Hawaii until introduced and perpetuated by Haoles ... (vs Hawaii's truely indigenous tonal / rythmic Mele).

As hard as Pride begs to differ, melodic "Hawaiian" music has been evolutionary and would / could not exist without the Haole armature, elements, HEAVY influences and direct Haole contributions it's been written upon, during any given period after about 1800, with a grand and wonderful Hawaiian character (much of the time anyway; ah-hum JAWAIIAN ... different times, folks & strokes! ).

I would better understand the value of anyone desiring to attribute a definition / claim upon "Hawaiian" Music, ...if they would state the time period and elements they are referencing. Otherwise we might as well include Jawaiian which is every bit as much modern "Hawaiian" as was "Hawaiian" during any given period of time after about 1800 ...imho. And yes, Jerry's playing was very different than ......Jawaiian

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Edited (6-28-06 05:26 AM) to add: ...and I think Jeff Au Hoy's efforts, accomplishment and odometer is quite qualified to help find definition of "Hawaiian" during any period of time.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 07 July 2006 at 05:16 PM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

I have no answer, but another question:

Shouldn't the question be "is it good music on not"?

This debate is found in EVERY style and sub-style of music. People think a very narrow parameter defines bluegrass; when you listen to the original Monroe recordings, you find (gasp!) walking bass lines and Grappelli-influenced fiddle.

When practioners of Irish trad go back and really listen to Michael Coleman, they find he's an improvisor- and not just ornamentation; real melodic improv that you'll rarely hear at a session...

I'm all for understanding the unique components that make up a style/genre of music; I also know it is individual players that cause seismic shifts in genres. It takes a lot of heart to "be different", because there are always people ready to shoot you down, not on the merits of the actual playing, but on more philosophical grounds.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT pointing any fingers at anyone on the Forum, but sharing what I've seen in the musical worlds I walk through.

Many (not all) of the detracters/begrudgers and self appointed keepers of the flame (in any style of music) are very passionate about what they feel are the "pure elements" of the music, and they resist any change. They also tend to be weak musicians (some of whom I've known personally to never practice anything other than their rants).

Jerry Byrd remains a benchmark for musical and technical excellence on the steel guitar, regardless of musical genre.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 28 June 2006 at 06:13 AM.]

Dom Franco · From: Beaverton, OR, 97007

To me and the un-educated average listener, Any song with a Ukulele, and Steel guitar(especially playing 6th chords) is Hawaiian music.

After all perception is reality... when you are playing for an audience, their oppinion is what really matters most.

If you are only playing for yourself, college music students, or traditionalist band members, then you can afford to be very picky about what is and what isn't authentic.

Just my oppinion, BTW I love to take swing standards, oldies etc and arrange them hawaiian style.

Dom Franco

[This message was edited by Dom Franco on 28 June 2006 at 07:10 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Jeff kind of gave an explanation in the Billy thread and intimated that JB was telling Hawaiian musicians what was and was not Hawaiian steel playing? But it sounds to me Jeff is doing just what he is accusing JB of (I myself have never heard JB making any statements of the kind anywhere)? Dick McIntire was one of his admitted early influences as I’m sure other artists were as well.

I was accused of playing Hawaiian steel guitar at a country recording session last week! I was in fact playing okie on a lap steel? The singer always wants tele from me because I'm a good guitar player and he doesn't have a clue about non pedal steel. So this issue of what in fact is "Hawaiian steel" does come up in other areas.

I thought Hawaiian music was a vibe like the “aloha spirit”. When you hear it you feel you’re on an island out in the Pacific. The different techniques of getting that sound to come out of your steel are varied from artist to artist. But it’s that vibe of being on an island in the Pacific that I call Hawaiian music.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

"walking bass lines and Grappelli-influenced fiddle"

John I caught that too.
And took plenty of flack for walking sometimes.
Many of the bass players later on were just
not as good as the "original bluegrass band's" bass player.

So less became more standardized.
I can occasionally hear some jazz manouche in the early recordings.

I would define Hawaiian music as :

Music sung in Hawaiian
Or with specific Hawaiian islands themes
And instrumentation typically played there
in the last 100 years or so.

The indigenous folk music of those islands.
Which includes slack key, and acapella chant.

And the stereo-typical music any tourist would recognize on going there.

Much of it has clear anticedants in 20's jazz,
and olde timey musics much of the time

Instruments that ALWAYS come to mind :
slide guitar, ukelele, rythmn guitar, and wood drums.

Adding all these elements does leave a lot
of room for individuality, with in a framework.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

I give a "nod" to the Hawaiian Steel Guitar's Hawaiian Ancestry ... by using the term ... Hawaiian Steel Guitar ...

As far as what's "Hawaiian Music" ... I'm gonna have to defer to "real musicians" for that ...

But I sure don't buy into "Authenticity" being associated with Genetic Predisposition or Environment for that matter (ie: being born and raised in blah, blah, blah)

Hal Smith, Mike Scott, Bruce Clarke, Mike Neer, etc ... pretty much "poo poo" those notions

Personally ...

I'd rather hear Dave Giegerich play "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" or Jeff Au Hoy play "The Oscar Mayer Weiner" theme ... than some of the Hawaiian music (w/ or w/o steel guitar) that I've heard ... past or present.

It's the instrument and how it's played that I'm drawn to ...

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 28 June 2006 at 10:26 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

{transfered from other thread}

The suposition that :

You can't play "really Hawaiian"
if you're not Hawaiian,
which appears to be the basis of many
of these critisisms,

is parallelled by the thought you
can't play jazz if you're not black.

Well both are complete BS.

The best players in any genre do NOT sound like the others in it.
They sound like themselves.
EVENTUALLY the listening audience picks up on this uniqueness.
And the become well known and respected.

AND even in this case there are still those
who will carp that "they don't play like XC,Y,Z, xo it ain't correct.

Jerry was amazing, and most of the "great"
hawaiian players recognized that.

A few got crotchety in their later years,
and their pearls of wisdom were passed
on by others, as much harsher observations
than they actually were.

This seems also to apply here.

A few may have not "allowed him into their club"...
Their loss not Jerrys.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Oh, what is Hawaiian music, what isn't, what's supposed to be, what coulda been, what shoulda been, what someone said it almost was, a friend of an aunt whose uncle was twice removed thought that he almost heard it on a Tuesday.....

This is all a load of dren! You like what you hear?, enjoy it it, play it! Don't like it, get over it & move on. None of us are getting any younger.....or wiser it seems.

Mat Rhodes · From: Lexington, KY, USA

I, for one, think this is an important subject because we've about exhausted every other topic known to steelers. Our existence is meaningless unless we have something to argue about and stand for. Forget about all that practice stuff; I'd rather witness the drama that hits this forum twice (or more) a month.

"Hawaiian" music is a nowadays a marketing term that is rapidly encompassing about every genre that you'd see at a major chain music store that doesn't read "Hawaiian" on the shelf label: the only difference is that in doing so, it gets watered down while losing its hipness. For better or for worse, it'll probably end up enjoying the same fate as modern Country music. But that won't stop me from listening.

Matt

[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 28 June 2006 at 11:53 AM.]

George Rout · From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Hi guys, while I don't really care about the subject, I'm just wondering if Jerry had a chance to input "live", I wonder what he'd say!!!!!!! Geo

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

Not sure, George. But I'd love it if he said, "SHUT THE HELL UP ALL OF YOU AND GET A FREAKIN LIFE... ESPECIALLY YOU, JEFF AU HOY."

Jesse... sorry, I wasn't hinting towards Jerry in the other thread at all. I was actually pointing towards a person like yourself. I shouldn't have picked Nashville, as that probably confused things. Please know that if Jerry (with all his expertise and experience) had an opinion on what is Hawaiian-style, I'd definitely want to hear it. Sorry to confuse things.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 28 June 2006 at 06:00 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Jeff, when I said I don't get what you’re saying, it still stands? What you said was "...but should I go over to Nashville and tell them whether or not they're playing the real stuff". Now your saying you were referring to people like me, which means you never, addressed your statement that "JB didn't play Hawaiian"?

What we are asking you to address is what it is that you consider to be real Hawaiian steel since you are excluding JB. I'm not saying what is the real stuff or isn't, it all sounds real to me. Some guys I strive to sound like and others I don't, but I'm not the one saying any artist isn’t real?

I was hoping that you would stand behind your statements and defend them because you thought they were important, seemed educational to me and to others. I mean if you don't, than what the heck does it look like? Nobody wants you to shut up, that’s a cop out. It seemed like a big step for some of us to admit the swing issue concerning JB, why is that?

What the heck is Hawaiian steel if JB isn't part of it's real stuff? Come on and clarify this Jeff. This place gets boring without this kind of debate every once in a while.

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

I don't mean to gang up with Billy on this one, but for me Hawaiian style steel playing is inspired by Hawaiian singing. Billy said, "We play the way we sing." Those are the single note lines you hear and particular movements in and out of each note. Jerry has elements of this in his playing, but there are also many elements that are very outside of the box. This is apparent to those immersed in the music here. Yes, there are a lot of different-sounding Hawaiian singers, but it is still apparent when a singer comes from the "outside". Just like how a lot of different people from the same area can speak the same dialect (even with variations), yet still recognize when a guy is from out of town. Even native born singers can sound like they're from the outside.

For me, especially in hula-type records (those intended for the dancer), Jerry tends to over play, running up and down scales or showing off fancy slants. But this is Jerry's style. It may be beautiful to someone--I just don't consider it Hawaiian style playing.

This is not to single out Jerry. People have criticized Barney Isaacs and Jules Ah See as having been too "jazzy". For me, even Dick McIntire had severe bouts of jazzing it up. Billy too was an admitted jazzer, but when it came time to play Hawaiian style (i.e. "the way we sing") they would do it. I think Feet Rogers stands out to a lot of Hawaiians because, as simple as he played, he pretty much only played Hawaiian style.

Again, I have no intention to cut down anyone... these are simply the sounds I hear and the classifications I make. Dom said anything with an 'ukulele and a steel playing 6th chords sounds "Hawaiian" to him. I can't argue that.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 28 June 2006 at 07:34 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Cool Jeff, thanks for the explanation. I don’t think of the Hawaiian singing voice as the only way to go because I like the swinging jazz part of steel playing, but I do plan on looking into it a lot deeper.

Now Howard, did you learn something?

Don Kona Woods · From: Hawaiian Kama'aina

What is a definition of Hawaiian music? I believe that it needs to include Hawaiian words in it.

IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT MAKES STEEL PLAYING SOUND HAWAIIAN OR HAVE A HAWAIIAN TOUCH OR STYLE?

It has been hard to pin down and that is why it seems we have a little difficulty in defining it.

For me, I know it when I hear it. When I hear it, it always produces chicken skin. Then, even when I hear it, I do not believe that I could analyze it and then be able to adequately communicate it.

I believe that Jeff and Derrick Mau in listening could immediately tell the differance but even they may have difficulty in communicating it.

I would like to hear what Derrick Mau says about the subject.

I wish my friend John Auna from the Big Island was here to discuss this. He played the old Hawaiian songs in an old Hawaiian style which was simple and captivating. It always produced chicken skin. This kind is rarely heard today. Partly I believe it is in the songs that are played

I believe some of the following elements are involved in the Hawaiian touch and style which are (not in order of importance.):

1. Hawaiian vamps – both instrumentally and backing up vocals.

2. Glissing.

3.Smooth oscillation of the bar other than when there is a need for fast picking. Hawaiian steel players oscillate bar much more than country western players. MHO

4.Delicate picking or good, sensitive touch with the picks rather than attacking the strings.

5. Single string playing which allows more expression as Jeff has stated. He feels more full chordal playing limits the expression, if I have heard him right.

6. Playing with heart

7. I still believe that some of it comes from growing up with it. IMHO

8. Absolutely leaving the volume foot-pedal control out of it. It sounds country.

I have to take a break. See ya later.

Aloha,

Don

[This message was edited by Don Kona Woods on 28 June 2006 at 10:59 PM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Thank You, Folks. I am monitoring with great interest (and need); Will reply asap.

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Derrick Mau · From: Honolulu, Hawaii, USA

Hi Don,

I'm in complete agreement with you in that a song must have Hawaiian lyrics to be considered Hawaiian music.

Hawaiian music has many, many styles . . most in recent years I'm not particularly fond of. Go to mele.com to listen to Henry Kapono's new CD called "The Wild Hawaiian" to see what Hawaiian music is revolving to.

Anyway, to answer the question if someone has to be Hawaiian in order to sound Hawaiian, I don't think so. Some of Hawaii's steel players have little or no Hawaiian blood, but we do have one advantage; we lived in the islands all our lives, so we are very familiar with Hawaiian music, how it should sound, and how to express the right feel into our music.

Even those in Hawaii that don't play any musicial instrument at all will know it when they hear it. If a foreigner plays Hawaiian music, we can tell right away that it's not someone from Hawaii.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

So is "the art of Hawaiian steel" by Stacy Phillips with all those old school lines considered the real thing? I haven't heard anything by Feet's Rogers yet that really stood out in my ears as sounding like the Hawaiian dialect yet, but I haven't heard much by him.

I know that some languages can have a sound that goes up in pitch or down in pitch to mean different things and so it seems to me you guys are referring to how a note is approached and departed that is a reflection of the same approach to the Hawaiian language and Hawaiian singing right? Is how you gliss a big part of the Hawaiian launage?

I would appreciate it as I'm sure others would too if you guys who know the difference could point us in the right direction as to specific examples where to hear the real Hawaiian music as it relates to Hawaiian steel either by way of singers or steel players. Is trying to learn to speak the Main Hawaiian launage beneficial to learning to phrase lines on the steel in a similar manner? That would surely constitute an in depth scholarly way of expanding your approach on steel if it makes a big difference in your overall sound. Concerning the half white swinging Hawaiian dance music with the jazz edge, does this ethnic approach not lend itself to that genre well since so many famous steel players from Hawaii didn’t seem to concentrate on it that much or was it simple a commercial profit decision by the record labels? This would make an interesting music book for Hawaiian style steel players.

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Yes, preservation is great, but when that is put above personal expression you defeat the purpose of playing music in the first place. WHEN YOU LABEL, YOURSELF YOU LIMIT YOURSELF. Of course people more or less will play one kind of music or another, but at the end of the day, playing in an "authentic" or "orthodox" manner should never get in the way of self expression.

Why doesn't everybody just focus on sounding like themselves? Do you think it sounded "Hawaiian" the first time Joseph Kekoku slid a knife or whatever across a SPANISH guitar? What about the Portugese sailor and his Ukelele? How "Hawaiian" did he sound at the time?

Who's to say some kid in the Islands can't take a Fender bass with one string and start playing it with a bow and in 100 years that's considered an essential part of Hawaiian music?

Jules sounded "jazzy" beause jazz was popular at the time. He was being openminded to his own musical growth, not just being some kind of musical civil war reinactor. That's what made him a great player. Musicians are influenced by their surroundings. Just like a student never stops learning, music never stops evolving. If every chapter's bneen written, then the story's over. Once the music is frozen and stands still to be documented, it's dead.

I love playing traditional forms of music, but at the end of the day, the music I play is my music, more so than it's Hawaiian or country or jazz or rock or whatever. That's just marketing. Of course there is an overall difference between hawaiian and country (being the two most popular styles on this forum), but why can't there be any grey area? Jimmie Rodgers was just as much a bluesman as he was the "father of country music", and the first fiddler was just an Irishman playing bag pipe music on a violin.

Music is for rejoycing. Play what makes you happy. Thank goodness the scholars (and amataur scholars like ourselves) keep track of where the music is coming from, but let's not forget to take it somewhere, too.

Without growth, you die.

aloha,
CS

[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 30 June 2006 at 10:06 AM.]

[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 30 June 2006 at 10:08 AM.]

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Just in case I sound like a crazy person, my basic point is don't close the book on a tratitiona' form of music just yet. Give it room to breath without all the anal subcatagorizing and labeling. Yes, one should be well versed in a traditional music form before they profess to be a player in that style, but music police shouldn't call end to it there.

CS

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Hawaiian Guitar and Hawaiian music is what started me on the steel guitar road in 1936.

But most of the music is of course more mainland songs than original hawaiian.
I like them all and probably can still play about 28 solos. Most of them well known. We played them at Luas' , Hawaiian clubs, (they were popular then) I liked the floor shows with the hula girls and their grass skirts and Leis on their neck.
Down where the trade winds play, on the beach at waikikee.
I dreamed at that time of moving to Hawaii and playing my guitar. I never made it there, but the great Jerry Byrd did....sl

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

This ethnic thing is too restricting and is but a part of the overall approach to getting your steel to sound Hawaiian. This is what all the greats obviously found out when they combined it all together to get a good Hawaiian steel approach. It's all subjective. I would rather use as many approaches and licks as I can find to sound Hawaiian. Early jazz lines, chords and Hawaiian stock licks and phrases mixing together. JB played Hawaiian, as did all those guys who were accused of being to Jazzy. I'm not a big Feet’s fan I guess, he sounds redundant and boring to me from what I've heard. I guess you could say real Hawaiian music is different from real Hawaiian steel playing; the steel helped it to evolve.

Terry Farmer · From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

Hey Jesse,
When you get all your approaches and licks together to "sound hawaiian" you may want to throw in a dash of humility and respect.

[This message was edited by Terry Farmer on 01 July 2006 at 11:18 AM.]

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