thoughts on Early Poco

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

This morning I sat back and listened to Poco live Deliverin', great LIVE record from 1971 , of course with Richie, Rusty, Jim Messina, Tim Schimdt, and George .

This time I focused more on Jim Messina with Rusty Young and how they worked together. This lineup to me was the ultimate and I can see how after Jimmy left before the next LP that it could never be the same. And it wasn't. Once a piece of magic exits it's real hard to replace it, regardless of how great Richie, Tim, Rusty and George were.

For those of you that are Tele pickers or are seeking becoming a Tele picker this LP, although not filled with flash and hot licks is a testament of how Tele rhythm, backup and simple fills is executed. Harmony lines above and below the Dobro/Steel etc. It's also a great example of how two great players interacted with each other and understood each others role in the music. It's not just trading solo's, it's working together in the same space.

For me, this LP was a major influence and still is.

thanks Jimmy.......oh and the rest of the band !

PS..the Tele /Twin ( no picks) tone ain't bad either !

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I'm gonna throw this on right now and give it another listen.

Ive havent been able to get into Poco for some reason. I'll try again now..... Razz

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Ben , the listening experience is better with 3 Donuts and a Coffee or Soda.

maybe thats what you have been missing ?

POCO is a more than just a band to those of us who are fans, it's where they came from, the history, what they created. It was a fresh sound we heard at a time when we were perhaps playing something totally opposite. Voices, Harmonies, the LOOK, the Instruments , the style of it all.

Don't feel bad, all of my younger friends don't like this band and can hardly get thru one or two songs. They pretty much have no appreciation for the influence these guys had on Music. They don't hear what I hear. Rusty was probably my first REAL legitimate influence on Steel and Jim Messina is the one who made me put my picks away. I went to traditional Country AFTER Poco, and FROM Poco. Richie is STILL a primary vocal influence even though he would run for cover if he heard me sing !

I would say my Country roots started here. My Rock and Roll and Blues roots were years earlier.

tp

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

you are one hundred percent correct Tony. I am missing all the context that helps make this stuff great for those that were there at the time.

I only have "Pickin Up the Peices" here with me at work..and I listened to the whole thing just now. There were some moments I dug....but that whole kinda psychey vibe, with the vocal harmonies and elaborate song structures and weird effects is kinda alien to me.

Pete Finney · From: Nashville Tn.

I love that early Poco stuff, I saw that lineup live many times and I especially love "Pickin' Up the Pieces" for the playing (some of the song lyrics don't hold up very well over the years IMHO). I think Messina's playing is fantastic on that one, and to me Rusty played a certain uptempo E-9 country style on that album which seemed totally new (with roots in Mooney, Brumley and Lloyd Green?) but that he never really featured much later on. I like all his rock and roll stuff too with the Leslie, distortion and wah-wah etc. and of course later he still played some classic "straight" E-9 but I just love his playing on that first album; it was definitely one of my biggest inspirations to start playing steel.

The first steel I ever got to really look at up close was when I snuck backstage after a Poco show in 1970 and introduced myself to Rusty. He was nice as could be and showed me the underside of his steel and explained some about it. I also remember distinctly him saying that he personally would just as soon play straight country music, but that he thought that this was a great opportunity to use the steel in other kinds of music and in front of a different audience, and that that was good for the instrument (kind of interesting in terms of all the Robert Randolph controversies here almost 40 years later!).

One thing though... I'm pretty sure Messina played electric guitar back then with a thumbpick and metal fingerpicks. Anybody know for sure?

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I saw them in when they were still calling themselves Pogo, with a G. They were forced to change their name by the owners of the comic strip.

I believe Randy Meisner was still with them at the time
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Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I saw them right sfter Messina left and they got Paul Cotten. It just wasn't the same. The spark was gone. Paul Cotten is a good player but Jim Messina is Jim Messina. There's only one. Like Stephan Stills or Brian Jones in the Stones. It was a perfect line up. It just goes to show you how if you change just one person in a good line up it can completely change the character of the band. They were a major influence on our generation. Monster harmony singing. On key! The dolphins turned there heads when Randy Meisner sang.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Tele's and metal picks are not a match, way too shrill.

The tone that Jim Messina gets is not from metal picks, it may be possible that he did use a Thumb pick but it was brought to my attention during those days from those in the know,( NYC tele pickers) that if I wanted to sound like Jim Messina I had to put my pick in my pocket! so I did .

plus I read it in some journal interview somewhere. at the time.

Plus I saw him with Kenny Loggins, very close up.

Interestingly, a few weeks back I went to see Robben Ford with Larry Carlton, Robben plays a Tele half the time on stage and when he does..NO PICKS..which is evident in the tone he gets. Both Larry and Robben shed the pick on several occasions while playing.

Both great.

Pete Finney · From: Nashville Tn.

Well, I remember seeing him playing with fingerpicks (though my memory is certainly fallible at this point) and to me on close listen to many tracks today it's a very distinct hard and metallic (in a GOOD way, I love his playing) tone he gets from a tele. I've never had any luck with fingerpicks on electric myself but I still think that's what he did, to me it does NOT sound like fingertips or nails...

And I found this:

Paul Cotton in an interview talking about going on the road with Poco to hang out with Jim Messina to learn the parts to get ready to replace him in the band:

"Jimmy has a very distinctive guitar style. He could play two notes and you knew it was him. He used metal finger picks, which is where that sound he got came from. I could never get used to those picks, having been rockin’ and rollin’ for so long, so I adapted those songs without em, they were wanting my style and tone by then anyway. So it worked out. The guitar lick on "You Better Think Twice" was the hardest thing I've ever learned to play. Of course he plays it like he's falling off a log. I didn't learn until years later that he used an open tuning on it."

So I still wouldn't swear that this is correct, but I think the question is still open at the very least...

I have a feeling Steve Hinson might know.... Smile

Pete Finney · From: Nashville Tn.

Dennis Olearchik · From: Newtown, PA

I've been a Poco fan since '69. Luv'd to hear Rusty's steel, Richie's voice and Jim's Tele. Their sound was familiar but so fresh sounding back then. Wasn't a fan of Paul, at first. But it didn't take long to realize what a gifted song-writer, singer and guitarist he is. Here are some of the songs he either wrote and/or sang that are favorites of mine:
Bad Weather
Blue water
A Right Along
Magnolia
Driving Wheel
Angel
You've Got Your Reasons
Indian Summer
Heart of the Night
Under the Gun
This Old Flame
The Storm
Running Horse
p.s. the closest I ever got to Jim's Tele sound was using the bridge pick-up on a '52 RI Tele, through a Princeton Recording amp using the built-in compression feature and a large thin Fender pick. Too bad I can't play like him though Winking

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I sent Jim an EMAIL, on his website is a current photo of Jim playing a Strat and you can see a thumb pick only...

lets see, we can all go forward together !

but keep in mind , James Burton, a thumb and flat are both plastic.

When I met Jimmy Capps he told me he used a Thumb and no finger picks or no picks at all. But he also said sometimes he used a Thumb and flat ! go figure ! Jimmy Capps tone is very similar to the Messina thing.

I'll wait here by my PC for a return EMAIL from Jimmy Messina.. Smile

Pete Finney · From: Nashville Tn.

Cool Tony; it will be great to get it from the source. I hung out with Jim at a gig we were both on about 10 years ago but long ago lost his contact info. I'm curious to see what he has to say; like I said I was never positive about the fingerpicks but just wondering...

But I do know that at one point James Burton used a metal fingerpick on his second finger along with a flat pick...

How does one use a flat pick and thumb pick at the same time??

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

I worked with Richie in the studio yesterday and he mentioned that he and Messina are talked about doing some shows together this summer (like Richie did with Chris Hillman last summer). Nothing in stone yet, but keep an eye out...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

John, thanks for the heads up..that would be an excellent show to attend.

tell Richie not to forget about us here in Charlotte , we have Electricity too !

tp

ps, thumb and a flat..
Holding a flat is not the same as using 1st finger against the thumb pick, it's a totally different feel.It's very hard to control the depth of the pick..at least it was for me.

For me two things convinced me to put the picks away..

1, I could never find one
2, when I did find one I always dropped it and lost it again Sad

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Maybe John was doing Plumbing repairs and Richie was watching, coaching , offering advice ?

probably not but , hey, ya never know !

yeh John you pretty much need to come to the table here...

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I was (and still am) a huge Poco fan, and was lucky enough to have been at the Boston Music Hall show that part of "Deliverin'" was recorded at - I believe late summer or early fall of 1970. They were really on that night, and my original copy of that LP is so battered from play that I really need to find a new copy.

I also agree that Poco was never the same after Jimmy left. Still a fine band, but I don't think you can ever put the genie back in the bottle. That's chemistry - or maybe alchemy. I dunno.

I don't know why Poco seemed to fall somewhat out of the "influence limelight" later on. I think they were hugely influential at the time.

There were a bunch of Tele players that really influenced me back in those days - James Burton, Jimmy, Robbie Robertson, Clarence White, and shortly thereafter Roy Buchanan. These players opened me up to Roy Nichols with Merle, Don Rich with Buck, and other stuff I might have missed without their influence.

I wasn't close enough at any Poco show - I was at a few - to tell whether Jimmy used fingerpicks or not. I think it's mostly what you get used to. Guys like James Burton and Jr. Brown use flatpick plus one or more fingerpicks - I don't think it's hurt their sound at all. The hands make adjustments.

I didn't start on pedal steel until relatively recently, so I sometimes wanted to emulate steel sounds. Like most steel players seem to prefer fingerpicks, I decided to go flatpick + 2 fingerpicks. I tighten 'em up enough to about weld them onto my fingers, and play with them pretty far up on my finger - there may be a tiny bit of flesh involved. Now I have to have them - oh, well, you pays your money, you takes your choice.

At least with fingerpicks on, flatpick feels totally different than a thumbpick. To me, alternate up-down picking is very awkward with a thumbpick - even the kind that are designed to be grabbed with the index finger - the Fred Kelly "bumblebee" is probably the best I've tried like that. No doubt some can do it, but I really prefer the hybrid flatpick/fingerpicks approach. Hey, lots of great guitar players use only a flatpick - seems to work OK. YMMV. Smile

Frank Freniere · From: The First Coast

Dave -

Also saw them summer of 1970 in Boston - once at the Boston Tea Party & then at some outdoor gig. Fantastic! FF.

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

We are working on a 2 CD Live record--recorded at the Boulder Theater and the Bluebird Theater here in the Denver area in December. The band is his road band along with his daughter Jesse on vocals. Should be out before the summer--no steel, though... We are hoping to do another studio record this fall...

He is having his other hip replaced on Tuesday--the first one was a major success and we pray this one will be, too... Smile

If any of you do not have his current CD "Heartbeat of Love", you are missing out on a good one... Smile

_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar

Dennis Olearchik · From: Newtown, PA

Since Messina was only with Poco for 2+ years and 3 albums, what do you think about his playing with Kenny Loggins (7 albums over 4+ years)?

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

Messina was a killer surf guitarist and his Jesters were one of the best.
What a drag to find out it was indeed him in Loggins and Messina.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Frank - I'm not sure how many times Poco played the Tea Party, but I saw them there also that year - I'm not sure they played there more than once. Probably was at the same show.

From 69-71, I lived within walking distance of Kenmore Square. I saw every show that I could pay, borrow, or beg my way into. For those two years, I didn't do much but play or catch shows. It's a miracle I ever got anything else done - well, actually, I didn't get much else done then.

On Loggins & Messina - it's not at the level of Poco, to my tastes. But Jimmy's playing was just fine, IMO.

BTW, looking at a '73 clip of Loggins and Messina - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu31wrAvW-0 - I clearly see a thumbpick plus what looks like finger picks on his index and middle fingers in places. For example, look at where he has his hands outstretched at 1:57. Yeah, I know the video is grainy, but it sure looks like it, and sounds like it to me too.

On the other hand, there's a youtube video of Jim playing acoustic (Pooh's corner in '72) with no picks at all. Imagine that - different techniques for different purposes. Smile

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