steel and valve amps help

Ben Hoare · From: NSW Australia

Hey guys was curious for your thoughts. Ive always been a fan of tube amplifiers.I find they have a depth and warmth I like.I know most steel players seem to use solid state amps that Ive seen but Ive heard a few with Tube amps and seem to get a sound that Ive really liked espcially if your after something unique.Ive been working with my amp for a while a classic 50 and have tried twin reverbs etc but the sound often seems to be to middy or a bit fuzzy and often gets lost in the mix and doesnt cut through enough.I guess this is why most avoid them.But could anyone share some pointers on gaining successful tone that cuts through with these amps.Whats the keys to success.Ben

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I use tube amps quite a bit and tend to prefer them. A standard Fender twin with 2 12"s works great with a steel. For EQ I start by setting the knobs this way:

brite off
treble 4
mid 10
bass 3

That gives me a basicly flat sound. Then I adjust from there. Those first settings work great with a Franklin. But for an Emmons PP or a Rains it ends up closer to this (depending on the pickups):

Brite off
treble 6
mids 4
bass 7

I hope that helps as a starting point at least.
_________________
Bob

David Doggett · Posted 13 Mar 2008 10:02 am

A Classic 50 is a medium powered guitar amp. It is designed to have a lot of warmth and early breakup, both of which work against cutting through a loud mix. I can't get much use out of those kinds of amps for pedal steel, except maybe for blues and rock, where you might want distortion. A silver-face Twin Reverb (or Dual Showman) is one of the few tube amps with enough clean headroom for pedal steel, except with very loud bands. On occassions I have had to go with two Twins, or a Super Twin (180 watts). My starting settings are very close to the first ones given by Bob H.

The bottom line is that, because of the way we use the volume pedal for sustain and swells, and the thick chords of pedal steel, if you use a tube amp it needs to be a big clean-playing one.

Ben Hoare · From: NSW Australia

thanks Bob and Dave I used to have a silverface but the maintenence was to high and it was to heavy but a beautiful amp.I swore Id never sell it and I wish I never had.

Damien Odell · From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia

Hey Ben,
I use a Peavey Deuce with 2 x 12" black widow speakers. It weighs at least ten thousand kilos, but I've never been pushed round by a guitar player yet.
It is tube powered - not preamp, but with a EQ unit I get a decent sound out of it.
It's probably more the fault of the sound guy if you're not cutting through. In sound check, the sound guy usually says "play something at solo volume" ...I always hold back a little and keep a coupla notches up my sleeve, cause very few sound guys seem to understand how the steel works with volume etc.
go well
Damien

Ben Hoare · From: NSW Australia

Hi Damien how are ya.Yes I do the same as you with reguards to sound engineers ,as youd know to well many of our soundies dont really know what a steel is let alone mix one properly.That was a big part of the problem but now I think its more of a frequency thing and the fact that some of the guys I play with play really loud.I dont know if youve had smililar but my steel often seems to come back through the foldback really washy at times.

Damien Odell · From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia

Yeah I know what you mean. It is a problem, most of the gigs I'm doing at the moment are small stage so a lot of the time I'm not even miced to I don't have a problem.
I used to find that if I asked the guy on the desk to bring the steel right up in the foldback the it sounded like crap.
I guess the answer is to use an amp with heaps of headroom to be heard above those annoying loud guitar players. I'm over really loud gigs now, too much hard work eh.
We should get together for a play sometime.
Damien

Ben Hoare · From: NSW Australia

Id love to.It seems to be a common theme about loud gigs I was talking to tomi a while back and he said the same.I ll send you my number or call and maybe we can hook up sometime

David Doggett · Posted 13 Mar 2008 8:34 pm

It is very difficult to get the steel volume just right in a very loud group. The right volume range is very narrow. The group is already close to the pain threshold. If you back off just a little too much your sound is lost. But if you play just a little too loud you are piercing everyones ears.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Ben Hoare · From: NSW Australia

Thanks for your thoughts Jim.I should clarify "fuzzy" as a bad choise of word as its usually ascosiated with distortion.
Quote"It really sound like you've just been playing amps "off the shelf". That doesn't work well even for 6-string. Tube amps take some work to "dial in" to your style - but it's worth it."
I owned a twin reverb for a year when I started playing steel.My twin wasn't distorted probably a better word is washy.It seemed to be more washy and big in low end mids.So it washed in and got lost with the sounds in the band.In the end I agree I think mine could have used some set up and I should have experimented with tubes more so not to bag the twin cause I think there a great amp.Also some of the bands I play with are at times more rock than country influenced so getting passed there distortion is an added challenge.I agree that they take more work but doesnt everything that's worth it.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

If you're playing in a strictly non-miked territory, or soundmen that can't do what you want, you're better off with a Nashville 400 or similar. Otherwise you won't be able to compete with a guitar player and a cheap Fender Stage amp. They just don't need the clean headroom.

I've played through one for 25 years, and have only lately been going for Tube Only setups.

I have a Classic 50 212 that is perfect for what I do, or I use it in stereo from my Podxt or xtLive with a Blues Jr.

I either point them at my head, and demand that if they want to hear more, then they need to turn it up in the PA.

Mr Sliff's advice is good, as far as it goes.

If I'm reading your post right in translation, you're at the mercy of soundmen, and other players that have "aboriginal" sensibilities.

A Nashville 400 or similar solid state amp, you can rise above ANY guitar amp, or slam banging drummer, and point it at the ceiling if you need coverage that a PA affords, if the guy can't "get it right". Earplugs and not pointing it at your head are going to let you destroy THEM without destroying your ears.

A simple Podxt, is important if you want to get out of the "sterility" of a Nashville 400 type amp.

To get what it sounds like you need, you'd need a hundred pound Fender Super Twin, or a Peavey Mace (aptly named) or Deuce.

Hard to beat a Nashville 400 for what you describe.

JM $.02 ( Worth less in USD every day..)

Wink

EJL

David Doggett · Posted 14 Mar 2008 9:31 am

I only partially agree with Eric. I found my 200 watt NV400 was not louder than my 135 watt late silver-face Twin. Solid-state watts and tube watts are not exactly equivalent. Furthermore, toward its top volume the SS NV400 did not sound good. In contrast, the Twin sounded its best near top volume, and everyone in my group agreed on this. The best I can describe it in words is that at high volume the SS amp went "braatt" and the Twin had sparkle on top, nice mids, and good umph on the bottom.

But as Eric said, when the Twin was not loud enough, I had to go to two Twins, and finally to a 180 watt Super Twin, which I put in a head cabinet to split the weight up. Probably a 300 watt NV1000 could match a Super Twin in volume, but again, I would expect the Super Twin to have much better tone in the high volume range.

Just to be clear, I use the Super Twin in loud rock clubs that do not mic the guitar amps. The guitar players may be using amps as low as 12-25 watts, but they are maxed out and very loud. A Twin or Super Twin could totally blow them all away (as well as the windows and everyones eardrums) played straight through with the volume on 10. But I attack notes with the volume pedal down half way or less. The rest is reserved for sustain of long notes and clean chords. Also finger picking and use of a bar instead of frets cuts down the volume. I figure a pedal steel amp needs about 4 times as much power as a guitar amp in order to keep up with plenty of clean headroom and volume pedal sustain.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Ben Hoare · From: NSW Australia

Thanks for your thoughts Eric and Dave I have the classic 50 with 4x10s and would like to hear more of your experience with it.I used a twin and played with a guy who had a AC30 who every gig would be tellin me to to turn it up when I didnt have any more to give and left me often feeling dwarfed.I played a classic at one of our major festivals one of the few times I used the backline instead of my own gear and there was an instant difference .How could this be with a smaller amp.I could here every note and it sounded great and everyone commented on how good my franklin sounded when I new the only thing that changed was the amp.Also the sound from the pa was good .So heres something else to add to the mix. Much of the talk has been about getting a clean volume that will get over the other instruments.On that night I only had the classic 50 on 4/5 and still cut above that Ac 30 which brings me back to finding a frequency that cuts through the other sounds not gets over the rest.Something else to add to the mix is that I havent done a show for quite a long time where my amp is not miked up and goes through a big pa system and often outdoors.This being the case maybe its as much about getting the sound I want to go through the sound system.Any thoughts on this espescially when dealing with engineers who are unfamiliar with steel guitar.Also Eric how do you set your classic 50 and what effects are you running if you dont mind.Cheers guys this is helpful Ben

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Interesting.

I'm using my Classic 50 212 at a gig tonite for the first time "mono" and I'll let you know.

I retubed it with a reportedly "cooler" quad set, and a "cleaner" V 1-2-3 set from Eurotubes, and I really like it here in the dungeon.

It's a non miked gig, thought a pretty "tame" band.

Smile

EJL

Ben Hoare · From: NSW Australia

thanks Eric

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