E9/C6 vs. E9/B6

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

E9/B6 vs. E9/C6:

There are two schools of thought on the E9/B6 Universal tuning/setup:
1. Separate the E9 from the B6 with a lock.
2. Don’t separate the E9 from the B6 with a lock.

The separation is not complete even with the lock, just a bit more convenient, and allows another set of levers to be introduced.

Those that do NOT want the separation will probably not want the E9/C6 concept.
Those that DO want the separation will like the idea of the E9/C6 concept.

The E9/C6 is not so much a Universal as two necks in one, and can be like a D10 on one neck.

If one is to commit to using one neck at a time, there are several hardware ways to approach the problem:

1. With the Lock approach, all of the attendant halftone changes and rechanges.
2. With the use of an under the strings capo at the 1st fret = C6 from the simple B6 Lock approach.

The under the strings capo approach has some issues:

1. The scale length will be different for each tuning. A 25” E9 becomes a short 24” C6.
2. The scale markers should be moved to show the 3rd,5th,7th, 9th etc. frets for the C6.
3. Any gauged rollers should be addressed in the capo for string planarity considerations.

The fret markers can be made to slide and appear in holes centered in the frets, or at the edge of the fret board.

Not having come by way of the D10 E9/C6, I like the E9/B6 Uni that includes the A6 also. I use the under the string capo IF I really want a C6 for some reason.

Another advantage of capoing the B6 to get C6 is that the G# becomes an A, and when raised to A in E9 becomes a Bb in C6…too high for an actual C6 tuning on the E9 scale.

Then there is the question of how to set the top strings…like the E9, or like the C6.

Opinions anyone?

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

A guy asks a simple question and gets these endless rambles for an answer.... Cool

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Olli Haavisto
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Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Devising an E9th/C6th set-up seems like a lot of effort to place a square peg in a round hole.......For universal tunings the relationship between the E9th & B6th tunings makes perfect sense.

That said, I play a D-10 and I enjoy jumping from neck to neck for the different sounds that each tuning offers.

After the initial learning curve transposing any given key to different fret markers has just never been a big deal. In fact, the ability to transpose is a primary skill requisite for playing any pedal steel guitar.

Robbie Daniels · From: Casper, Wyoming, USA

I play both and find that certain sounds and advantages are obtained by single or double neck. Transposing from C6 to B6 is no big deal. The only problem, if you want to call it that, is that the straight forward C6 tuning placement of the strings as opposed to the B6 lends itself to be better played on C6 for certain songs that have been originally learned on the C6. I get my enjoyment by playing different gigs with different steels. At my old age it keeps me alert.
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David Doggett · Posted 8 Feb 2008 12:13 pm

The main advantage to having C6 on a uni would be to play some traditional steel instrumentals in C using the open strings. The rest of the band is not going to like playing those in B. I never learned any of those, so I have no problem with an E9/B6 uni. If those C instrumentals were a big part of my repertoire, I'd make an effort to get a capo. What I would want is a block with a flat bottom to sit on the fret board and hold a roller nut with rollers gauged like my regular roller nut.

Since string height, spacing and roller gauges are brand and model specific, it would sure be nice if manufacturers would offer such capos as an option with the instrument purchase. It would probably not be a big deal for a manufacturer to get such a part made. It would basically be like the nut end of a keyhead, and would accept their standard roller nut. If somebody tries to make these independently as an after-market item, they will have to deal with all the different string heights, spacings and gauges, which makes it not worth the effort. Sad

Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

Hey Dave
If female singers can get away with the keys they sing in, the band can learn to play in B for us! The E9/B6 debate has gone on since the tuning first was conceived. It all boils down to what your comfortable with and what you like personally. Pick one go with it and don't look back.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

One way to solve the B6/C6 issue is with electronic pitch shift. Not too big with steel players yet. Sure saves a lot of hardware.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Ed, if you keep going on like this, you're gonna drag us kicking and screaming into the future...

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Jim...please scream in Eb...kick low and to the left!

Peter Nylund · From: Finland

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I know my playing is a bit pitchy, but at least my tone sucks

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

If you don't mind skip grips, it's pretty easy to morph extended E9th to D6th:

Rex Myers · From: Risingsun Ohio, USA

There is an article written By Maurice Anderson about E9th/B6th that is relative to this subject that I find interesting, It was something I read that helped me decide which direction to go as far as 10 strings versus 12universal or extended. Forum members may already be aware of this article you can get to it in the Forum at the link below
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm Surprised

As far as a lock is concerned I prefer a PSG without one, If you like Maurice Anderson's style which seamlessly went in and out of both tunings way cool!
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Rex Myers Fessenden U-12, 6 string Lap, Randall Steelman. Fender Princeton ReverbII, QuilterTT12

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

If you're mainly a C6th player who needs to get the E9th sound sometimes, an 11-string D6th would make this simple lock scheme possible:

Eugene Cole · From: near Washington Grove, MD, USA

I use a E/Eb lock to switch between B6 and E9 on my U14. The Lock allows you to use the familiar changes without having to dedicate a foot or knee to maintaining the E/Eb change. I also have a D10 which is a fine guitar but because it lacks the lower-tuned strings which I have on the U14 I do not play it very much.

Regarding Capos; I use one on my Dobro which only has 10 strings becuase I use open strings and do hammer-ons and pull-offs to/from the open-tuned strings. However I have never used a Capo on any of my PSG's; however a capo on a PSG could be placed anywhere so the E9 & C6(capoed) is not particularly remarkable. I do not think that relocationg position markers makes any sense unless you like the allure of gadgets. The LED side-markes on the Alembic-made Guitars and Basses are kind of helpful (when the instrument is brand-new) though a dimmer for them would a great addition.

Transitioning between C6 and B6 is not a great challenge (unless you rely on the open-tuned strings).

ShoBud made S20's with E9 and C6 combined. Julian Tharpe had one pictured on one of his LP covers. He made this guitar sound great (but I am preaching to the choir on this Forum). I have never seen one of these S20's come up for sale on the Forum so I do not know what they would sell for if one did become available, nor do I know how many of them were built. Because I do not know of anyone that is still playing one of these guitars I would guess that the number of S20 E9/C6 guitars built was less than a dozen. I will add that while I currently feel very at-home on my U14 I think that going much past 14 strings would be too-many for me to keep track of. Also string-spacing (for-me) is an issue. I had a U12 Remington which had a string-spacing which was too-wide for my taste, I would guess that the neck-width from low to high on that U12 was similar to the width of my U14 Sierra. I use a custom made (extra-long) bar on my U14 and on that U12. The $25 for a custom made bar from bulletbars.com is the best-purchase I have ever made for Steel playing. Bulletbars.com offers a to-your-specs bar for a lower cost than most of the off-the-rack namebrand bars.

Having spent far too much time playing around with Copdents on paper I do not think that an E9/C6 Universal tuning makes sense to me because you have to activate and lock too many strings concurrently.

Another thing that I suggest you throw in to your list of possibilities for any tuning Universal or not is to have coil-tapping on your pickup(s) so that you can change the intrinsic harmonic properties of your pickup(s) dynamically. The pickups chosen for E9 and C6 tunings are typically built with distinct (fixed) harmonic properties. Coil tapping really opens up your tonal options regaardless of whether you have a multi-neck or a single-neck instrument. Sierra offers a triple-tapped pickup as an option on their instruments, and I believe that these pickups are "standard" on their Universal-tuned guitars.
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Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^)

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