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Topic: Hello and first question -- C6 with bender |
Greg Pettit
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 2 May 2006 8:06 pm |
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Hi all,
First the introduction part! -->
New member here; I was recommended this forum as one of the main online homes for non-pedal steel players, so I signed up without too much hesitation. I'll try not to be too much of a newbie and I'll do my best to use the search function.
I'm a home recording hobbyist, and while my gear certainly isn't pro, hopefully if any home recording questions come up I'll be able to help. If any of you are avid recordists and follow the plug-in thing, you may know me from other online forums, or from the VST freeware plug-in "company" (using the term loosely!) called BetabugsAudio, for whom I do the documentation. I also worked on docs for GVST (another freeware developer), so I'm a bit of a plug-in geek, which will likely put me in the minority as someone whose only real amp is a fairly crappy solid-state affair.
In any event, I'm a bit of an online addict at times, so you're likely to see me around fairly often.
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The question part:
I'm brand-spanking-new to lap steel. After a bit of research, I've decided to go with C6 on my self-made 6-string lap steel as the first tuning that I work at familiarizing myself with. Part of the design of my steel was to incorporate an Epiphone EZ-Bender, which is basically a palm-operated bender. I guess I'm breaking the "no peddlers" code a bit by having a makeshift "pedal" of sorts. Hope I don't get thrown off a cliff for that. 
What I'm wondering is this: If you could attach a bender to any one string in the C6 tuning, which would it be? I can set it to do either a semitone or a full-tone bend. In theory, you could "stop" yourself at the semitone spot, but it doesn't sound as sweet so I'm going to forgo that option. By default, I stuck it onto the high C string, but the interval created in conjunction with the E isn't very "country" sounding, which is the main sound I want to achieve.
Looking at the intervals created in the tuning, I actually can't see any that would work "right out of the box", so I'm wondering if I'm better off detuning one of the strings first, and using a modified C6 tuning of sorts.
I hope I'm clear enough in what I'm trying to accomplish-- the ability to use C6 tuning overall, but with the added bonus of having one string with a bender attached to it.
Any opinions on an approach to take?
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It's nice to have found this place, and I hope that I can be of help, too!
Greg |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 2 May 2006 10:09 pm
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| Your low C string could use the bender to raise up to C#, that would put you in Jerry Byrds popular C6/A7 tuning. That would be pretty cool to be able to instantly switch back and forth in the same song if that's possible. |
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Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
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Posted 3 May 2006 3:42 am
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You could raise the A string to B.
You'd get Cmaj7, Emin and add a 9th to the Amin.
Then you could also tune the low C to C# and get all kinds of possibilities.
Fred |
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Craig Stenseth
From:
Naperville, Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 May 2006 5:16 am
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Does this bender stay 'locked on' to whatever (half tone, whole tone) you set it to, or is it more like a 1-string whammy bar or that B-bender some Telecasters have (it returns to the original note when you let go)?
btw welcome to the forum! |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 3 May 2006 5:55 am
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Take the top E to an F note..
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| Steel players do it without fretting |
 
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Harry Dietrich
From:
Robesonia, Pennsylvania, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 May 2006 5:57 am
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Hi Greg
Why don't you just do "behind the bar" string pulls with your ring finger, then you don't need a bender.
Welcome to the Forum.
Harry 
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 3 May 2006 6:37 am
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| Greg. Your bender idea has been done by several lap builders. There was a lap on Ebay a few weeks ago that had two EZ benders on it. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 3 May 2006 7:39 am
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A to B is probably the most useful.
As mentioned above, it works well with the low C# string. Also you can tune it raise to a half step which is also useful. |
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Greg Pettit
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 May 2006 8:18 am
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Thanks for the replies!
Jesse-- I'll definitely keep that in mind as I learn more about the steel, but for some reason I keep imagining that for that "high lonesome sound" that it'll be more in keeping with my goals to use one of the higher (and preferably bare) strings.
Fred and Earnest-- Sounds like a plan; I'll give'er a try.
Basil-- I was definitely considering that one in terms of useful voicings, but I like the ability to bend a note, add a stationary higher note, and then release the bent note.
Craig-- it's a "one-string whammy" type thing, which raises perfectly to pitch (half or whole) if you've adjusted it correctly, and returns perfectly to pitch when you release.
Harry-- Before designing the steel, I considered it, so I practiced some "behind the bar" bends on my acoustic guitar just to get a feel for it. It's going to take me a long time to be able to do right, as my dexterity is failing me in that department. HOWEVER, it also occurred to me that since it's a skill I simply SHOULD be acquiring anyhow, the excuse is that I'll be able to do an easy "palm bend" with the EZ, while at the same time doing a behind the steel bend; once I've practiced enough, it'll be very useful to me!
And if I end up liking behind the bar better, I can eventually just remove or ignore the EZ-bender.
Bill-- I'm not too surprised it's been done before as it seems so "obvious" in a way. I wonder if they had a more creative way of mounting the bender than me-- I just used a TOM with a self-made bridge (could find a TOM to get no radius on the strings at the time, though I saw one at GuitarFetish that I'll be able to shim easily, after the build).
Thanks for the welcome, all, and any further suggestions are certainly appreciated. Right now I'm leaning toward attaching it to the A.
Greg |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 3 May 2006 9:24 am
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| I'd raise your high E to F which will give you a IV chord (C,F,A) tune your low C up to C# and do the rest with slants.In the right hands,a lot of music could be gotten from that setup - it still will not sound like a pedal steel though. But here's my view: To play any kind of steel guitar well,the right hand is already quite occupied with picking,blocking and muting.I tried palm pedals on a lap steel years ago and found that operating machinery with that same hand is an impediment to those tasks and so by assigning the pitch changing tasks to the left hand(basic bar control and slanting skills)especially on C6,slanting will deliver the voicings you seek with no gadgetry.The high lonesome "moving voices within a chord" country sound is best gotten on an E9 pedal guitar though,and it seems like that may be the sound you're actually seeking. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 3 May 2006 10:26 am
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Instead of the expense of the TOM bridge, you could easily send it over a round bar.
The TOM will have too much arch and also the "sawing" effect of the string through the saddle will add a lot of drag and cause intonation problems. The round bar with a light cut in it and some oil in the slot for the string might be less drag. Fender used the bar in front of the early 800 pedal steel guitar for several years until the started offering a roller bridge. |
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Joseph Carlson
From:
Grass Valley, California, USA
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Posted 3 May 2006 10:58 am
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| How about A to B with a 1/2 stop to give you the dom 7 (Bb)? |
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 3 May 2006 11:33 am
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The high lonesome country sound doesn't necessarily require a pedal to achieve. Think of Don Helms' or Jerry Byrd's work with Hank Williams, for example.
There are specific sounds unique to pedal steel, like the standard AB change, and if you need to hear that specific sound you'll need a pedal steel. You can get very close, though, even without a string bender, by using two string slants: e.g. G to C = start at fret seven, pick strings one and four. String one slides to fret eight and string four slides to fret nine--a reverse slant. Give that a try and the lightbulb might go on...
You'll be surprised at how much high lonesome country there is in the C6 tuning if you know what to look for. There's even a lot of that modern country "speed-picking" type sound available as well as some really easy to access pentatonic blues. It's a really versatile tuning.
As far as what string to bend, the A to B (or Bb, as Earnest pointed out) sounds good with the only proviso that there's a case to be made for all the suggestions you've received so far.
-Travis |
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Greg Pettit
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 May 2006 7:17 pm
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Thanks for the continued replies. Some very useful stuff! It'll take me quite a while to sort out even the suggestions given, as I learn not only a new instrument, but a new music style (while being a fan of country, I've not played much except for some tele-style licks) and the biggest challenge of all-- the theory to understand all these voicings and why they sound the way they do.
Michael: In the very long run, you may be right and I wouldn't say definitively that I'll never own an E9 pedal guitar. For now, though, I'm going to try my best with this instrument before making such a leap. The least reason not being that I'm in a tiny apartment with no room for even this lap steel, never mind a pedal steel/case (assuming I collapse it each time, which isn't likely). More importantly, though, I truly appreciate your well thought-out response which takes into account the fact that I AM going to try with this beast no matter whether an E9 pedal becomes an eventual destination. Merci beaucoup!
Bill: Even a metal bar would have too much friction, so I crafted an instrument that uses a self-made roller bridge. I may have forgotten in my previous post to mention that it has roller saddles on it. That, combined with a classical guitar Trem-nut (for flat/zero "radius" and wider string spacing) and friction is one of my lesser concerns. The bridge itself cost $6 in materials, and the stop tailpiece cost $15 CDN ($12 or so), so I'm not out of pocket too much.
Travis: slants, indeed! I tried the example you gave and it's in the right ballpark of what I'm trying to achieve.
I wanted to take a picture in natural daylight, but just for the curious, here's a quick shot of the steel:
Joseph: The A immediately struck me as the next one to slap the bender onto, but of course being a neophyte I wanted to get some opinions. I thought there'd be a resounding agreement for a particular bend that everyone wishes they had "on tap", but the more I read and the more I research in the meantime, the more obvious it becomes that even within one tuning (or similar tuning with slight mods) there are a multitude of styles and approaches!
Greg[This message was edited by Greg Pettit on 03 May 2006 at 08:19 PM.] [This message was edited by Greg Pettit on 03 May 2006 at 09:13 PM.] |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 3 May 2006 8:02 pm
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Greg. Send me a pic of your bridge. I would like to see how you did that.
I will send you a pic of a lap I made with two palm pedals and a knee lever. |
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Peter
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Posted 3 May 2006 11:47 pm
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| I would drill a hole underneath the palmpedal arm and attach a bicycle handbrake cable assembly to the arm. The other end of the cable could be on the floor attached to some kind of foot pedal. This will keep the right hand free to do all the things MJ said. [This message was edited by Peter on 04 May 2006 at 12:49 AM.] |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 4 May 2006 11:15 am
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| I'd shed those dobro bars at the earliest possible opportunity. They're good for hammer-on bluegrass dobro in G tuning and that's about it. Reverse and compound slants are damn near impossible with those things. You're gonna get a lot more tone and control with a bullet bar. It might take you a minute to get it together but it's one of the more important things you could do to get where you're trying to go.You do use fingerpicks - right? |
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Greg Pettit
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 4 May 2006 12:44 pm
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Peter-- that occurred to me, too, and I'll file the "handbrake assembly" idea away, because it beats the "fishing lead" idea I had. A knee lever or floor pedal could still happen!
Michael-- well, I don't really play yet at all, the guitar only being a day old as of today (only really finished last night). I haven't come across much literature on fingerpicks yet, so I'm not sure what the pros and cons of the different styles are. Something tells me that the metal ones will be the way to go. I have ONE plastic one lying around, and I tried giving'er a go and it'll definitely be a learning process.
Regarding the bar, I definitely appreciate the advice. I took the guy at the store at his word that the GS1 would do the trick, and of course it felt nice in the hand. That was before I even knew about slants, though, so it didn't occur to me that it might interfere with certain techniques. Coulda saved a few bux, too, as the GS1 is a touch more expensive than a standard tone bar.
Gotta do some forum searches and internet searches on fingerpicks and different types of bars, I suppose.
Cheers,
Greg[This message was edited by Greg Pettit on 04 May 2006 at 01:46 PM.] |
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Greg Pettit
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 5 May 2006 12:21 pm
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Sorry to bump my own thread. Not looking for further advice so much as just saying that Michael was spot-on, of course. Tried out and liked an Ernie Ball model with a fat round tip, and although I'm only starting the learning process now, I can already tell that it was the right recommendation.
Tried to grab some metal fingerpicks while I was at it, but all the local stores seem out for some reason. I'll either have to go further abroad or wait until Retrotown's stock is replenished in about a week. In the meantime, I grabbed some cheap plastic ones just to save my fingertips from agony.
Cheers again for the advice,
Greg
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 5 May 2006 5:06 pm
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Just a thought--what size Ernie Ball bar did you get? I've only ever seen pedal steel sized bars from that company...
-Travis |
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Greg Pettit
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 5 May 2006 5:51 pm
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Not sure! The SKU label on the (old and battered, since it's probably been in the store for ages) package says "GA Slide Ernie Ball 4233 Red Dot". The actual EB label doesn't say. It's probably a pedal steel bar, but I don't mind.
The guy who tried out my guitar (and had great success, including using the bender as it is on the C!) is a pedal steel player and he owns the same bar, but it's not his normal one. I guess his normal one is more like the Shubb-Pearse, though I didn't go into specifics. In any event, he put it to good use and demonstrated some pretty effective techniques with it, so I figured, "Meh, sold!"
I shopped around a BIT, but I'm not a patient man, and with this being the only one in the Ottawa area, I figured I had nothing to lose. It's exactly the length of my middle finger on the palm side, and is fairly substantial in weight.
It's tricky to get used to-- while the slants I'm trying to learn are FAAAaarrr easier using this thing, I'm so used to "remove and replace" technique from bottleneck slide that I find myself wanting to pick it up, which isn't as easy a task as with the Dobro-style grip.
Greg[This message was edited by Greg Pettit on 05 May 2006 at 06:54 PM.] |
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 6 May 2006 11:52 am
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I think you've got yourself a pedal steel bar--which is fine, it'll work and it'll sound nice what with the extra mass as compared to a lap steel sized bar. If you find a lap steel sized bar (maybe 3/4" in diameter and about 2 3/4" or 2 15/16" or so long) I suggest giving a it a try; you'll probably find it even easier to manipulate than the pedal steel bar that I think you've got now.
-Travis |
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Greg Pettit
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 6 May 2006 12:00 pm
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Pulled out a tape measure and gave'er a go-- it's about 3/4" in diameter, but a little bit longer at 3 1/4".
The extra length could come in handy if I move to 8-string. For now, it's not long to the point of being cumbersome, but the slipperiness and round shape are proving interesting to come to terms with.
Not sure that I've found my tone bar soulmate yet, but I'm glad I followed Michael's advice for C6 slant-style playing. The Shubb GS1 will still come in hand for open G blues style playing at some point in time, but for now this seems to have been a worthwhile investment.
Greg |
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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Posted 6 May 2006 2:12 pm
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One thing you could try is, using the bender to go from 5 to 6. This would mean tuning to an open major chord like A. E-C#-A-E-C#-A high to low, or in C: G-E-C-G-E-C. Then have the bender on the 4th string tune up a whole step to get your 6th sounds. This setup can make a lot of the sounds like Clarence White and his B-bender guitar.
If you make that bend and also make a behind the bar 1/2 step bend on the 2nd string, you've got the classic pedal steel ab pedal sound. |
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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