| Author |
Topic: Boo-wah F string lower to Eb |
Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2008 3:23 pm |
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Hi Jim,
I lower my ninth string to Eb with the 8th pedal, for the reasons you mentioned. So does forumite Rick Schmidt. I asked Buddy Emmons one time if he ever did it, and he said he did. I'm sure there are many others.
-John |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 20 Jan 2008 11:00 pm
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Several ways to look at the chord construction.
| Code: |
In Key C
I IV VI I III V VI I III 9
C F A C E G A C E D
in key F = 4th chord of C <(edit)
V I III V VII 9
C F A C E G
----------------------------------------------------------
Boo wah in key c
VI III VI b9 III V
A E A C# E G
Boo Wah in A = 6th chord of C
6th of C = A
I V I III V 9
A E A C# E G
----------------------------------------------------------
Boo wah with Eb key C
VI bIII VI b9 bIII V VI I III
A Eb A C# Eb G A C E
Boo wah with Eb key A
I bV I III bV 9 I bIII V
A Eb A C# Eb G A C E
----------------------------------------------------------
Boo Wah with Eb as root
IV I bV bVII I III IV VI b9
A Eb A Db Eb G A C E |
If I am corrected, I will stand corrected.
But I think this makes sense.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!
Last edited by David L. Donald on 22 Jan 2008 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Jan 2008 5:27 pm
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David; I l©©ked at it that way and became cross~eyed! What do I do now? Tee~hee! Just kidding, but; I must admit I'm a little cornfused! You're probably correct. It's just my fault that I'm not used to naming everything and am out of practice with what I did know at one time!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2008 5:33 pm
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Does this P8 change also lower the 6th string E to Eb, as shown in David's charts above? I don't see that on the Sho-Bud charts.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 21 Jan 2008 6:02 pm
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b0b that was part of the topic above.
Conceptually examining the function
of lowering it a 1/2 step extra.
I looked at the forum copedents,
and Big E's does not lower to Eb
as it was stated 2nd hand that it did.
My guess is that Buddy must have meant;
he has tried that, or uses it occasionally for something.
Basically I looked at it in two ways.
a) what are the notes relative to the tunings key
in this case C and A with Boo Wah depressed.
b) what chord degrees can you spell using alternate roots
with Boo Wah depressed
John I find the best way to understand what
a pedal position or lapsteel tuning can do
is to look at ALL the possible roots
and the chords, spelled in degrees,
that you can build from them.
For me this was why Sol Hoop'i'i was such a master,
he REALLY knew what he could get from any tuning.
Same for Murphy.
I didn't go into 11ths and 13ths specifically.
From [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_(music)#Scale_degree]Wikipedia[/url] :
Extended chords
Main article: Extended chord.
Extended chords are tertian chords (built from thirds) or triads with notes extended, or added, beyond the seventh. Thus ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth chords are extended chords. After the thirteenth, any notes added in thirds duplicate notes elsewhere in the chord, so there are no fifteenth chords, seventeenth chords, and so on in tonal music theory, though such chords may be constructed with up to all twelve unique tones (this would obviously imply that the chord lies outside the diatonic seven-note scale) and doublings; such a chord may be of arbitrarily large size, though large names such as "23rd chord" and "25th chord" are not particularly useful.
To add one note to a single triad, the equivalent simple intervals are used. Because an octave has seven notes, these are as follows:
| Code: |
Chord name Component notes (chord and interval) Chord symbol
Add nine major triad ninth - C2,
Cadd9,
Major 4th major triad perfect fourth - C4, Csus
Major sixth major triad sixth - C6
Six-nine major triad sixth ninth C6/9
Dominant ninth dominant seventh major ninth - C9
Dominant eleventh dominant seventh (the 3rd is usually omitted) major ninth perfect eleventh C11
Dominant thirteenth dominant seventh (the 11th is usually omitted) major ninth perfect 11th
major13th C13 |
Other extended chords follow the logic of the rules shown above.
Thus Maj9, Maj11 and Maj13 chords are the extended dominant chords shown above with major sevenths rather than dominant sevenths. Similarly, m9, m11 and m13 have minor sevenths.
Extended chords, composed of triads can also have variations. Thus madd9, m4 and m6 are minor triads with extended notes.
Chromatic alterations
Although the third and seventh of the chord are always determined by the symbols shown above, the fifth, as well as the extended intervals 9, 11, and 13, may be altered through the use of accidentals. These are indicated along with the corresponding number of the element to be altered.
Accidentals are most often used in conjunction with dominant seventh chords.
For example:
| Code: |
Chord name Component notes Chord symbol
Seventh augmented fifth dominant seventh augmented fifth C7+5, C7♯5
Seventh flat nine dominant seventh minor ninth C7-9, C7♭9
Seventh sharp nine dominant seventh augmented ninth C7+9, C7♯9
Seventh augmented eleventh dominant seventh augmented eleventh C7+11, C7♯11
Seventh flat thirteenth dominant seventh minor thirteenth C7-13, C7♭13
Half-diminished seventh minor seventh diminished fifth CΓΈ, Cm7♭5 |
"Altered" dominant seventh chords (C7alt) have a flat ninth, a sharp ninth, a diminished fifth and an augmented fifth (see Levine's Jazz Theory). Some write this as C7+9, which assumes also the flat ninth, diminished fifth and augmented fifth (see Aebersold's Scale Syllabus).
The augmented ninth is often referred to as a blue note, being enharmonically equivalent to the flatted third or tenth, and is used as such, particularly in blues and other jazz standards.
When superscripted numerals are used, the different numbers may be listed horizontally (as shown), or vertically.
In jazz practice, the 13th chord is usually played
as a four-note chord, omitting the 5th, 9th and 11th
| Code: |
(e.g, C13 = C (root) + Bb --- E --- A )
----------------- I --- bVII --- IIIoct --- VIoct
or as a five-note chord, omitting the 5th and 11th
(e.g. C13= C(root) + Bb --- D --- E ------- A)
--------- I ------ bVII --- 9 --- IIIoct -- VIoct |
Of course in jazz nothing is absolute, fortunately.
___________________________________________________
Looking at Boo Wah with Eb root note
| Code: |
IV I bV bVII I III IV VI b9
A Eb A Db Eb G A C E
We have
I - bVII - IIIoct - VIoct |
so that works.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Jan 2008 7:10 pm
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David; Although I don't understand your long explainations above, I just wanted to mention that I also Lower my 9th (1-tone) F to Eb, along with Raising my 4th (Β½-tone) A to Bb, on a KL on my C6.
C6~~~~~~~LKL~~~~
D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A~~~~~ (+) Bb~~~
G~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
F~~~~~ (ββ) Eb~~
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Jan 2008 8:48 pm
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Bob, the charts that I was looking at don't lower the 6th string. It would mess up the regular A7 function of the boo-wah to lower the 6th string, but so far I haven't really lost anything by lowering the 9th to Eb.
Thanks everyone for your comments. I will forge ahead with my low Eb which so far is proving useful. If I had another knee lever on the C6 I might raise the A's to Bb's or lower the E's to Eb's but that's life with the old Pro.
David, I enjoy your signature line about pedal steels, happiness and strings attached every time I read it. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 21 Jan 2008 8:53 pm
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John's changes look like this to me:
Lower my 9th (1-tone) F to Eb,
along with 4th (Β½-tone) A to Bb,
on a KL on my C6.
C root
D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 9
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ III
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I
A~~~~~ (+) Bb~~~ bVII
G~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ V
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ III
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I
A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 6
F~~~~~ (ββ) Eb~~ bIII
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I
OR Eb root
D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VII (maj)
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ b9
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VI
A~~~~~ (+) Bb~~~ V
G~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ III
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ b9
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VI
A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bV
F~~~~~ (ββ) Eb~~ I
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VI
or A root
D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VI
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ V
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bIII
A~~~~~ (+) Bb~~~ b9
G~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bVII
E~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ V
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bIII
A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I
F~~~~~ (ββ) Eb~~ bV
C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bIII
Jim R. thanks for the nice comments.
I have been in 10 string E lapsteel tuning mode for 2 days now.
So I have been thinking in chord building logic the whole time.
At present I have this Low to high L-R :
| Code: |
A E G# B C# E G# B E D
IV I III V VI I III V I bVII
bVI bIII V bVII I bIII V bVII bIII b9
I V VII 9 III V VII 9 V IV
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versus this bottom
| Code: |
B D# F# B C# E G# B E D
V VII 9 V VI I III V I bVII
I III V I 9 IV VI I IV bIII
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What I am most missing is a diminish or half diminished passing chord.
middle B to A would do it,
but leave a giant IV sus in the E chord to avoid...
| Code: |
[b]E6, E7, E9, E7sus4 [/b]
B D# F# A C# E G# B E D
V VII 9 IV VI I III V I bVII
[b]C#m7b9[/b]
bVII 9 IV VI I bIII V bVII bIII b9
[b]B7, B9 & B7Sus4[/b]
I III V bVII 9 IV VI I IV bIII
[b]D#m7b5 (half dim), D# aug (no 3rd)[/b]
#V I bIII bV bVII b9 IV #V b9 VII
IV VI I bIII V bVII 9 IV bVII #V
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I want to cross between blues, jazz
and a little country with one tuning.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2008 11:46 pm
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| David L. Donald wrote: |
Several ways to look at the chord construction.
| Code: |
...
Boo wah with Eb key C
VI bIII VI b9 bIII V VI I III
A Eb A C# Eb G A C E
Boo wah with Eb key A
I bV I III bV 9 I bIII V
A Eb A C# Eb G A C E
----------------------------------------------------------
Boo Wah with Eb as root
IV I bV bVII I III IV VI b9
A Eb A Db Eb G A C E |
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Who lowers their 6th string E to Eb on the "boo wah" pedal? I read all through the referenced topic and the Sho-Bud charts and couldn't find a mention of that 6th string change.
In the P8 of the Sho-Bud charts, the 9th string is lowered to F to Eb but the 6th string stays at E. This would make it:
| Tab: |
Boo wah with Eb key A
I bV I III V 9 I bIII V IV
A Eb A C# E G A C E D
----------------------------------------------------------
Boo Wah with Eb as root
IV I bV bVII b9 III IV VI b9 VII
A Eb A Db E G A C E D |
This makes an Eb7b5b9, which may be a useful jazz chord.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2008 12:03 am
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Now think of it with B as the root:
| Tab: |
b7 3 b7 9 11 #5 b7 b9 11 #9
A D# A C# E G A C E D |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 22 Jan 2008 2:50 am Re: Boo-wah F string lower to Eb
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b0b, this is what I was extrapolating from
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 22 Jan 2008 6:19 am
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The information about Buddy Emmons lowering his 9th string to Eb at one time was not second hand. It was a statement from Mr. Emmons himself, on this forum.
I can't comment on the voluminous charts, as I only read as far as F being described as the "fifth of C", and quit reading.
-John |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 22 Jan 2008 5:07 pm
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John it was a dyslexic moment. The F=4th of course.
You are IMHO one of the strongest theory mavens here,
so if anyone would catch it, it would be you; the jazz piano player.
I had 3 people in a work crew wandering around me,
hammering, drilling sewing and asking for my attention,
WHILE I tried to decide on lapsteel tunings.
This caught my interest and I ran with it.
It is corrected. If you catch any other mistake
let me know. i DID ask for any mistakes to be
brought to my attention, at the bottom.
Buddy said it to one person,
and that person says it to us.
Second hand by my definition.
Not an implication on it's truthfulness.
If Buddy posts it, then it is direct, first hand.
| John Steele wrote: |
Hi Jim,
I lower my ninth string to Eb with the 8th pedal, for the reasons you mentioned. So does forumite Rick Schmidt. I asked Buddy Emmons one time if he ever did it, and he said he did. I'm sure there are many others.
-John |
Ok, I never saw the post of it,
your post here seems to say, to me,
it was actual conversation, like at a show.
Did he say when and how often he uses this change?
And/or when and for how long,
and why he isn't listing it anymore?
That was the point I was making
vs the copedent posted on Buddy's website
and on the forum copedent listings.
Not trying for a food fight,
just making an observation.
As another asked, by E message,
this was not a copedent per se,
but an what if analysis and comparison.
b0b there are three instances of Eb lowers mentioned above
all just string 9.
But Eb over all is a valid analysis also,
so I did it too.
b0b I just DL'd the Pro I II II Shobud book in the 1st link,
it INDEED says string 9 is Eb
Hand written 40 years ago to be sure.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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