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Topic: World class steel players - is it worth it? |
Ken Byng
From: Southampton, England
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 4:52 am
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I find it rather depressing that some of the world's foremost steel guitar players died almost in abject poverty. Jimmy Day and Curly Chalker come to mind just to name two.
If you are world class on most other instruments, you stand a very good chance of making a lot of money from concerts and record sales. Achieving world class virtuosity on steel guitar will not necessarily guarantee fame and fortune. Fortune to a lesser degree maybe for the very elite session players such as Paul F, Lloyd, Sonny G etc but certainly not widespread fame. The very recent death of Oscar Peterson struck me that his is a household name, even to those who know nothing about jazz. Is he any more of a virtuoso on piano than the Big E has been for the past 40 years on his instrument? Debateable. World class piano and violin players can play to large audiences the world over. Not so for steel guitar giants.
The message that should go out to all newcomers to the steel guitar is that you should learn to play the instrument for the love of it rather than as a means of making your fortune. It ain't going to happen.
I guess most of us do play for the love of it anyway, and adopt the philosophy that anything earned along the way is a bonus. |
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David Mason
From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 5:28 am
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Write your OWN songs and/or play something that a lot of people want to hear. The lack of original songwriting among steel guitarists is puzzling to me - is it because it's hard to play rhythm steel while singing? Instrumental skill and the burning desire to be a star are two entirely separate things, I think - if you want to be a star you have to do what stars do, look at Randolph. (No reviews needed, please please please...) |
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Eric West
From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 5:53 am
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The Muse is heartless.
The Pedal Steel Guitar is a novelty instrument at this point.
Those like Lloyd that have made their money, and provided a good living for themselves and a secure future either did it through hard work in a Union, or had other financial interests.
I don't think they've fared a lot worse than other instrumentalists.
Musicians aren't generally good money managers. Probably second only to sports figures.
Better, for my money to become a Humorous Campfire story than a Tragic Figure.
YMMV.
EJL
Last edited by Eric West on 27 Dec 2007 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Antolina
From: Dunkirk NY
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 5:58 am
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I'm surprised there aren't a ton of replies on this thread yet.
I can only inject my opinion and then only for what it's worth. We play this instrument for love. If yer looking for fame and fortune ya better have a lot more tricks in your bag. Yes, some of the greats have gone on to a measure of financial success but they're in the minority, IMHO.
In the heyday of the steel and the honky tonk sound, good steel players made a living doing sessions but even most of those worked with live bands and a lot went into instruction. Bobbe Seymour will tell stories of the "slow years".
Back in the 70s when the club scene was alive and well one could command about $75 for an evening's work. These days, depending on the area, you'll be darn lucky to make that.
Just my .02 cents worth. _________________ The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Bob Carlucci
From: Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 6:02 am
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RR would never have become the star he is if not for his vocal and performing ability...If he had to rely just on his steel playing, he would have a small niche' following composed mostly of other steel players and a few other musicians...He would be able to eke out a living perhaps, playing small venues and summer music festivals, but certainly not the stardom he enjoys today.
He is a great sacred steel player, but he's not the first or even best in the genre'.. His voice and perfomance style made him...
Steel is among the worst instruments to play if you are looking to play for big money.... as was stated above, you better have a LOT more in your bag of tricks....bob |
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John Roche
From: England
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 6:20 am
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Ken, I'm not what you would call a great steel player, I get by, but I have made a good living from it for the last 30 years.
I seem to be in the right place at the right time and got some good jobs with good bands over the years.
I have not stuck with country acts but found bands that liked how i played and fitted in with them.
Last year I worked with Eric Faulkner from the Bay City Rollers and Ricky Valance as well as lots of other acts here in spain.
When I went Pro in 1978 I got a real good job with Frank Ifield which helped me in later life.
I have a house in the UK and one here in Spain and next year I'm off to Goa in India to work with a singer there, I don't suppose they are are that many steel players there so again I'm opening another door in my playing career.
I hope this don't sound like bragging but that is how I make it work for me.. |
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Jim Sliff
From: Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 6:48 am
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I know local players/teachers who have made a better living out of music than guys playing in the big leagues. Heck, Billy Talbot and Ralph Molina (part of Crazy Horse with Neil Young and Frank Sampedro) were (and still may be) concrete/plastering contractors when they were not touring with Neil. They had to have "day jobs".
As guys with no hit songs to their credit as writers, they don't get much in the way of lasting royalties, and as sidemen get paid by the tour and session, not salaries as permanent "employees" (since Neil changes bands on a whim from Crazy Horse to Stray Gators to solo to who-knows-what's-next).
I've been offered plenty of touring gigs over the years, but when I looked at my "real" job vs a 6-month tour....and then a BIG question mark...there was not the enticement/security I needed, especially once I had a family.
In my old business life as a sales manager, I can't tell you how many guys I had work for me who were "once the bass player for (fill in the blank)" or whatever.
It's not an easy business, and I admire guys who can make a go of it - they really have to work their a$$e$ off. But the instability is why I made the decision years ago to play for the fun of it, and if I got to do a "name" gig now and then, cool. If not, it made no difference. _________________ No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Eric West
From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 7:40 am
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I guess an after-thought. A Digeri... Degresi.. Well you know..
After "touring" and working only music full time from about 80 to 85, I had nothing to show for it, and those years show up as a string of goose eggs on my SSGLI Readout. A real "badge of honor". Living in my car, other peoples' houses, and wondering who would take care of my dog while I was in Nevada.
I had at some point decided that there's no reason I played music except for money. In some ways the saying "too lazy to work, too nervous to steal" applied I guess.
I watched a local "Almost Made it", Jimmy Patton go from packing houses for 500$ a week while he was on probation, to playing pitiful dives with more pitiful bands, have free heart surgery, and die on the way home from a pitiful gig in a borrowed van while he was sleeping on somebody's couch.
It affected me I guess to the point where the first thing I was able to lie my way into for 6 bucks an hour, I did. Driving a Dump Truck.
Funny, the music work actually picked up, and I did both full time, sleeping 2-3 hrs between "days", and in 20 years, now I have at least a year in front of myself where I can call all my shots. I don't even know how much money I have. Enough for a year of loafing if I want.
(I'm actually off work today, and will spend it blasting telecaster scales and runs through a couple perfect Fender Tube amps. Not worrying in the least where the "next gig" will come from.)
In the meantime, I heard horror stories of how JCD died, Talked to Don West, my namesake while he died in a trailer in the SE, Curly, and a half dozen others I care not to sully their memories by recollecting their pitiful and honorless demise.
From the night I met Jimmy Patton outside Burns Brothers Lounge, and told him I'd go to "WhiskeyTown" NV with him "if he got the gig", after he had had 5 bypasses and was still drinking, while feeling like if I had any sand, or compassion, I'd shoot him... I have had no use at all for "music as a career".
I've taken every dime I could from The Muse, and if anybody has ever come close to breaking her heart or wounded her by lying to her,it has been me.
I take a great deal of pleasure in playing music, and learning from scratch The Telecaster. I play as much as I have wanted, and have been working on a "new me", for the next year, using every spare hour wearing my fingers out learning.
When I play Steel, I wonder at how easy it is to come up with flowing musical punctuation. Rather than getting sucked in to a thought that I am somehow worthy of "living the life of the artist", I remember all the pitiful picture of people gone before me dying while begging, being a problem to their families, and knowing that their Webb's, Sierras, Sho~Buds, and other "treasure" are going to be sold for half the money their families borrow to bury or burn them..
All I wdemand out of Music is Money.
I take it, say "thanks" and wonder who my next victim will be.
I tell The Muse:
"You want a gig? Here it is." Make me look and sound better, so I can get some more pocket money, and you're on.".
"Otherwise, go find some other poor schmuck to leech off of and destroy."
Not to worry, as I always say.
"A Musician cannot kill The Muse. The opposite, not being true."
I enjoy the playing of music.
Leaving others to figure out how to turn it into a "career".
I do enjoy "writing" about it, but the "Writers' Muse" isn't any more concerned about my well being...
YMMV of course..
EJL |
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Billy Carr
From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 8:06 am PSG
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Well for me, here in Mississippi, the best money I ever made playing was when I was 25 to 35 years old and played 5 or 6 nights a week. I did that for 9 years along with working a state job during the day from 6 to 3. I wouldn't do it over even if I could. A person's health and family are a lot more important that making an extra 300 to 500 a week on the side. I mainly play when I want to and enjoy it. I believe folks have to accept the reality that only a handful of steel players will ever be well off from playing. I tend to look at the dues the big guys have paid over the years. The stories are endless. For the ones that have survived, it's an honor to still be able to see and hear them. They've made there mark in history. |
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Pete Finney
From: Nashville Tn.
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 8:34 am Re: World class steel players - is it worth it?
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Quote: |
If you are world class on most other instruments, you stand a very good chance of making a lot of money from concerts and record sales. |
Unfortunately, though that sounds nice, I don't believe it has much to do with the real world of professional music; at least not as I've known it. It's not just steel players, there are great players on all instruments that never get recognition and/or money that comes anywhere near rewarding their abilities (I would say it's true in ANY of the arts really). In jazz alone the list of greats who had to scuffle between jobs to pay the bills is almost endless (Charles Mingus loading mail trucks for a living AFTER his biggest successes, just for one).
I suspect that if people were to start listing all the examples they could think of of great, great players who didn't make it "big" (or at all) it would be a very long (and very depressing) thread.
Last edited by Pete Finney on 27 Dec 2007 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Antolina
From: Dunkirk NY
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 8:39 am
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It's already a very depressing thread. Eric's story, while well written was an extremely sad read. _________________ The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Ken Byng
From: Southampton, England
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 8:45 am
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John Roche wrote: |
Last year I worked with Eric Faulkner from the Bay City Rollers and Ricky Valance as well as lots of other acts here in spain.
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John
I've done the Ricky Valance bit but I try to keep it a secret.
Ken |
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Robert Harper
From: Alabama, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 8:50 am Fleeting Fame
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Unfortunately, I don't think I would recommend music as a career to anyone. As I tell people at work. Name a group that have been around say 40 years. Well the Stones an maybe two or thre others certanily not the Beatles. Jonny and Conway are gone Waylon too. After a certain age. Yet to be determined at least by me what kid want to see and hear an ol f--- in a rock band. Who besides Dick clark can stay young forever. I remeber the days when we said Cool Man. How could I have continued with thies frivoulous endeavours. In fact when the whats your sign craze started, I wanted to barf. The people who made it are thoes who made it when they were young and invested wisely. I have bought several houses two just before a bust in the market. They say you can get rich in real estate. Obviously not all of us. I lived in a neighborhood that had a couple three builder and real estate agents. They did not seem to be wealther than I or work shorter hours. Some make it big Most don't So play for your enjoyment and because your families love you for it. Otherwise it might turn out to be a worthless hobby _________________ "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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John Roche
From: England
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 8:58 am
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Ken wrote[/quote]John
I've done the Ricky Valance bit but I try to keep it a secret
Quote: |
I did sack him after a week |
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Bob Hoffnar
From: Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 9:12 am
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If the point of being alive is being secure and the ability to consume whatever you want then maybe Jimmy Day died poor. If the point of being alive is to share your gifts from God and bring love and joy into the world then Jimmy Day died a rich man. _________________ Bob |
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Antolina
From: Dunkirk NY
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 9:26 am
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I don't know what the point of being alive is. What I do know is this:
The only thing better than doing what you want is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
hey, I think I'll change my sig line _________________ The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Fred Glave
From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 9:32 am
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Play for the love of it. (my opinion) If you make money doing it, great. One should also learn about other things in life in order to balance out need versus want. Not everyone is good at "business", so regardless of the situation, a person can either fail or succeed monetarily. |
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Ken Byng
From: Southampton, England
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 9:33 am
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Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
If the point of being alive is being secure and the ability to consume whatever you want then maybe Jimmy Day died poor. If the point of being alive is to share your gifts from God and bring love and joy into the world then Jimmy Day died a rich man. |
Bob - a very good point. But isn't there a 3rd preferred option. To be recognised by your peers as being up there with the best, and also by the public at large with the material benefits that come with it. The worlds top pianists and violin players are given more recognition, but what is apparent is that the steel guitar (being a 'minority' instrument) has limited commercial appeal. Very few steel players will make a significant amount of financial reward. Most are satisfied just to get by.
The amount of effort invested by most of the top eschelon of steel players to reach world class standard merits more reward IMHO. Others may differ.
It just pains me that people with incredible musical apptitude in one field die almost penniless, while others have security for life. |
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John Macy
From: Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 9:34 am
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Extremely well said, Mr. Hoff... _________________ John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Antolina
From: Dunkirk NY
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 9:56 am
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This thread is very thought provoking.
I never knew Jimmy so I'm not qualified to comment on his life. I read Eric's post and only have an idea of how it was at the end. I'm saddened by his personal problems. However, while he may well have had his ups and downs, for the most part I'll bet it was a helluva ride.
I mean that with all the respect and love due to a wonderful musician that greatly influenced my love for the music. _________________ The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Kevin Hatton
From: Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 11:59 am
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Ken, this is a very good thread about being a musician. Billy Carr I agree with you. Family and health are far more important than making some extra bucks playing music in hell holes until 2:00 in the morning. Pete Finney you are probably the most qualified musician on this thread because of your experience, and I bet you could write a book. As for myself, I spent the last six years playing in a top award winning new country band. I saw guys cheating on their wives, alcoholism, drug use. I saw marriages destroyed and children effected because of self indulgent behavior. I opened for 28 Nashville acts. Near all the big ones. Got a chance to talk to both the road players and the stars. I would NEVER do it for a living. The glory is short lived. The product curve on new acts now is about 12-18 months, then the labels chuck em and bring up the next one. Playing music is a self indulgent pursuit. True inner happiness is only achieved when we are engaged in the act of giving and self sacrifice for our family and close friends. Playing music will NEVER replace that. If you are playing music for worship like The Campbell Brothers its a different story. Its all in the Bible. |
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Eric West
From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 12:20 pm
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Well you know when I think of it, musicians are not the only ones that have poverty riden ends.
I know, in fairness as many truck drivers, iron workers, and even white collar people that end up in pitiful ends.
It's the nature of this world.
Perhaps Music and other Arts keep track of, and publicise our list more than others.
In my case, which definitely needs no pity, I have known several guys that tried to "make it" working construction, driving truck. No need, they figured to have a "sideline".
Well the first bump in the road, and 6 months off, they lost everything, and were like musicians I've known, on somebody elses' couch.
Myself on the other hand, say just after 911, when construction took a crap, and Oregon claimed the title of "Worst State Economy", I found The Steel Forum, got another amp, sent in my Professional to Duane Marrs, practices day and night, got some PF CDs, and went out and got gigs. Two and sometimes even three different bands. 5-7 nites.
Of course I was able to find a day job with all my experience, but it was driving a 105,000lb double dump transfer on a paving job for a guy I swore I'd never work for again. I eked out about 20 grand the first year, with about 5 for music, paid all my bills and got money ahead. Then a year where I only made 12, and another 6 for music. That one really sucked.
It was only about 5-6 years ago. I was playing gigs, getting off and changing on the way to moving a paver on a tilt deck, and going down to the plant to nap while I waited to load the first load of mix out with a roller on.
The guys that "didn't make it"?
I dunno. They just didn't. Being "truck boss", I used to go wake them up in their cars, parked around the shop, and go by the car to feed their dogs when I could. They never thought of "taking a second job".
I think what's been good for me with music, all cynical jesting aside is that regardless of my status of struggle, music has allowed me to "escape", or "have therapy" during the most miserable of times, besides realistically having made enough to make ALL my house payments while I worked "day jobs". The other guys at my "day jobs" haven't ever had enough.
My difference from my peers is that I've got a quarter million in equity in my house, the nicest Harley in my part of a big town, a basement full of fenders, and amps, and a year out in front of me that I'll call the shots in, for the most part.
All my bills and taxes are paid. I suppose I care how much money I have, but as long as I have enough to buy a new car if I want one, which I don't, I don't really care. I've even got a new BJS bar coming. How much better can it get?
The Difference between me and say G*** M****, P*** F*****, or tons of other REAL GOOD Pedal Steel Players, is that when my life fecks up ( thanks Arch), nobody will hear or read about it.
If my favorite dog passes on, nobody will be calling me every day to "see if I'm all right", or have benefits, rememberances, or other things that I might truly rather not have.
The difference between the good truck drivers that are in financial straits, and living hecks, and the musicians I know that are is that I'll never see the truck drivers. The musicians, I will. I still gig with a coupleonce in a while that dont' have cars/licenses, huge tax bills waiting the first time they file, and no phones..
My Dad, worked for the USFS his whole life, and when stuck in a desk job, his old rheumatic fever scars on his heart gave him heart disease. He worked and worked, rode bikes until his hear gave out and died face down on a high school track. '74.
His best friend Clay, lived many more years, retired, and lived upriver on the outskirts of a small town of Stevenson. He had throat cancer, beat it, and then ALS showed up. He couldn't eat, then he couldn't talk, and when it was time to move to Stevenson to get asperated in an emergency, he refused with his god's counsel. He suffocated the first time it came up critical. Otherwise he'd have been on a ventilator for 5 years.'04
The guy I worked for after 911, Mr Balzano had bought two "new" 93 KW Transfers. 8 axle, new paint new 425 Cat motors. His fleet of vintage Harleys was beyond compare. His retirement out of Local 701 was the largest ever in our State.
Well four years later, he's lost both legs to diabetes, has tried to jump off his 3 story patio more than once, his son spent all his money, the trucks got repoed, his son got a 20k ticket, lost his license, sold all his Harleys and put them up his nose, and he won't take any visitors in the last house he has that wasn't jacked by the IRS.
Only one of his daughters will help him, lets him live in the house that's in her name, and only if he's strapped down so he can't jump off his patio....
Me? The guy he treated like a dog over the twenty years I worked for him on and off?
I can even ask him if there's anything I can do for him, but I know he'll say that he wants' me to get him a gun. I don't owe him that.
Poor Walt. We're making bets on when he goes down at the plant when I stop by to see the boys. We joke about making italian jerky out of his leg.
No, on second thought, I think that our "miserable ends" are just remembered, and publicized more.
No one gets out alive, and Like somebody said in a song once: "The Best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep".
Or maybe in your Jeep...
I dunno...
Anyhow.
HNY.
EJL/HFLE |
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Ben Jones
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 1:01 pm
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Many of the worlds greatest artists have died without acheiving acclaim or wealth in their lifetime. Mozart, Van Gogh, etc etc the list is quite literally endless.
The thing is, to acheive financial success or fame, takes much more than great artistic ability (in fact you could argue that many achieve it with very little artistic ability at all).
Exactly what it takes I wish I knew. dont we all. |
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Junior Knight
From: Eustace Texas..paddle faster..I hear Banjos...
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 2:38 pm
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World Class I'm not..but I have made and STILL make a good living..in Texas..by playing for a living.
Yes,I have tryed to quit playing twice,but went back to playing 5 nites a week. Just my 3 cnts.
I am very lucky!! _________________ 2006 Msa S-12 “milly” 8 & 5 1976 Msa D-10 Classic 8 & 6
. Peavey Nashville 1-12 Tommy Huff speaker cabs. Goodrich pedals & matchbro.Steeler Choice seats.. that is all..(for now) lol
www.msapedalsteels.com
texsteelman2@yahoo.com
Jagwire Strings
Facebook/ Junior Knight, Steel Guitar |
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Clyde Mattocks
From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 10:50 pm
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It was in this forum that I read the quote, I believe attributed to Tom Petty. "If you can do anything besides music, do it! If you can't bear the thought of doing anything but music, then do music!" I don't think anyone goes into music for
the money. It's a calling, brother. As for the money, I believe most of us who have been in various bands would admit, we probably made the best money when we were playing the worst music. |
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