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Topic: Emmons PP changer finger |
Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 26 Dec 2007 4:44 pm |
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911.....a plea for help!
Had a steel mishap today which resulted in a broken string pin (the steel pin that holds the ball-end of the string on my PP C6th 10th string changer finger). The pin sheared off.
The circumstances surrounding the incident are too stupid for further elaboration. Suffice it to say, there is no way to mount the 10th string now.
Does anyone out there have a spare PP raise finger? Can these be drilled out and replaced with an oversize pin?
I'll call Emmons tomorrow, (but I'm sceptical about replacement finger availability). |
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Marty Neer
From:
Kansas, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2007 4:55 pm Emmons push pull finger
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Tony, I believe I have a raise finger for the
c6 changer. It appears to be just like
new.
If you're interested let me know.
Shoot me an email with your phone number. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 26 Dec 2007 5:46 pm
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| Marty..check your email...Tony |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 26 Dec 2007 6:25 pm
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| Marty, I don't know if the email is working....I left you my phone# and address in your PM...... Much Thx, Tony |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 1:01 pm
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Tony -
You can do a 'temporary workaround' to get you 'up and running' by putting the string through one of the holes in the finger that are used to recieve the raise-rod hook.
There are three holes in the raise finger; Don't use the hole at the extreme end of the finger (unless you don't lower this string) because the string will interfere with the tuning screw in the endplate that tunes the lower.
Of the remaining two holes, go through whichever one does not have the raise rod hook going thru it. Go through the hole from the 'inside' of the guitar towards the right endplate, 'fishing' it along the legth of the finger, through the cablinet, then over the radius of the finger, then, of course, over the roller and to the tuning key.
It's a bit of a pain to get the string 'threaded' thru, but if it means gettin' ya thru some gigs or whatever . . . go for it.
Also, if you choose to replace the pin in your existing finger, if the original hole in the finger is unuseable from being 'wallowed out' by the 'injury', you can always drill a new hole for the new pin slightly below the old hole, being sure there is enough 'thickness' between the old and new holes to support the newly relocated pin.
~Russ |
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Roger Shackelton
From:
MINNESOTA (deceased)
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 2:50 pm
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Tony, another option is to purchase a PSG that has slots instead of pins. No one has broken a slot yet. 
Roger |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 4:37 pm
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Roger,
Actually, I have seen a few broken slots over the years!!
Several were on 'pot metal' fingers, which may not be
too surprising, but one was on a machined aluminum finger.
Granted, this is an 'extreme' situation, but it was a repair that
came in to Scottys, and appearently the string had somehow
gotten 'tugged' on very hard, to the point that 'something had
to give' and it the the 'side' of the slot that 'tore' away before
the string (which was one of the heavier guages) gave way.
I don't recall the brand, but luckily a replacement finger was
available from the builder.
Among the strongest ball-end retaining methods I recall was
Dekleys, in which the string/ball-end was recieved via the side
of the finger and was a steel stamping.
~Russ |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 5:49 pm
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Tony ~
Here's a visual 'mock up' to
augment the 'string routing'
verbage in my post to you above.
~Russ
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 6:10 pm
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| Russ Wever wrote: |
Tony -
You can do a 'temporary workaround' to get you 'up and running' by putting the string through one of the holes in the finger that are used to recieve the raise-rod hook.
There are three holes in the raise finger; Don't use the hole at the extreme end of the finger (unless you don't lower this string) because the string will interfere with the tuning screw in the endplate that tunes the lower.
Of the remaining two holes, go through whichever one does not have the raise rod hook going thru it. Go through the hole from the 'inside' of the guitar towards the right endplate, 'fishing' it along the legth of the finger, through the cablinet, then over the radius of the finger, then, of course, over the roller and to the tuning key.
It's a bit of a pain to get the string 'threaded' thru, but if it means gettin' ya thru some gigs or whatever . . . go for it.
Also, if you choose to replace the pin in your existing finger, if the original hole in the finger is unuseable from being 'wallowed out' by the 'injury', you can always drill a new hole for the new pin slightly below the old hole, being sure there is enough 'thickness' between the old and new holes to support the newly relocated pin.
~Russ |
Russ....
Using the changer hole is a great idea. I'd need to feed an .070 (10th string C-neck) through the changer finger. I'll have to see if the raise holes will accomodate that large of a string.
That might get me through until I can find the large block of time needed to take off the neck and remove/disassemble/reassemble the changer.
I really appreciate the time you took with the verbal description and photo mock-up. Interestingly, the guy sending me a replacement changer finger is a Kansan like yourself. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 6:16 pm
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| Roger Shackelton wrote: |
Tony, another option is to purchase a PSG that has slots instead of pins. No one has broken a slot yet.
Roger |
Thanks for that little pearl of wisdom. I don't know why I didn't think of this $3000-$4000 solution to a broken roll-pin myself. I'll get on it this weekend.  |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 9:15 pm
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Tony ~
If, per chance, your PP is a Cut-Tail, it's
possible to replace the pin without pulling
the neck insert.
You would have to release tension on the changer
(ie, release string tension and release tension
from the Return Springs) then remove the four
screws and piece that spans the 'pillow blocks'
which support the changer-axle.
This will give you access to the upper
portion of the fingers.
With a long-length 1/16 bit, and Good Eye and
Steady Hand you can drill a new hole
(if necessitated by the old hole being wallowed)
or remove the remains of the old pin.
When replacing the pin, I'd recommend staying
with a Solid Pin as opposed to a
'split pin' (aka 'compression pin') which is hollow and
split along its length, and can collapse easier
than a solid one.
When restringing, be sure to keep the ball-end
of the string flush with the string-finger as opposed to
inadvertently allowing the ball-end
to be on the end of the pin:
Keeping the ball-end flush will represent a
'shearing force', which the pin can survive,
as opposed to a 'bending force' when the
ball-end is on the pins end.
~Russ |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 10:07 pm
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Russ,
My Emmons is a cut-tail....Funny you should mention drilling a 2nd hole, as I was just talking about that idea with a friend of mine.
He thinks that the span plate between the pillow blocks is also held in by 4 vertical screws from the underside of the endplate.....(in addition to the 4 horizontal screws visible in your end-on picture). If true, that might make it more difficult to obtain drill access..........Whad'ya think?
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 27 Dec 2007 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 10:20 pm
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Yes, the finger can be re-drilled for a new pin. You should go at least 1/8" below the present hole. Be sure to drill the hole on at least a 10 degree 'downward' angle to force the ferrule into the finger. The thing that usually makes these pins break off is that the player doesn't pre-bend the big strings enough to allow them to conform to the radius. As a result they crank up the tuner and the string ferrule is still hooked way out on the end of the pin. The mechanical leverage against the pin is then tremendous and the pin simply won't stand up to the increase in stress.
PRR |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 10:31 pm
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Makes sense....keeping the string tight against the changer finger decreases the lever arm and so reduces the torque moment on the pin.
I still need to see if there are 4 screws in the pillow block span coming up from the undercarriage side of the endplate. |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 11:16 pm
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That's right . . . I didn't think 'below the belt', although there are but two socket head screws,
one under each end of the piece you mention (though there are two wood screws in line with,
but beyond, the socket head screws, which secure the end-plate to the cabinet).
Easy removal using a 7/64ths Ball-tipped hex wrench.
Everything Paul mentions above is right on . . . BTW, Paul is very much a 'SGMG'
(Steel Guitar Mechanical Genius) and ya can 'bank on' what he says as being accurate.
The only thing I might add is that, when replacing these pins, I prefer to keep the length as short as
is practically possible for the express reason such that they will be more reluctant to bend or break
should a string be installed with its ball-end on the end of the pin (which sometimes can be easily
done, in the 'heat of the moment', during a gig, in dimly lit conditions, etc.).
I've seen a too many replacements in which the pin is protruding as much as twice as far as is needed,
and all this translates to is that it'd be 'twice as easy' to break, should the string be incorrectly installed.
It had made me wonder if the repair-person thought he was 'doing the player a favor', making it perhaps
an 'easier target' for the ball-end, especially when changing in low-lit/hectic conditions.
~Russ |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 31 Dec 2007 10:42 am
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I just received a PP changer finger from forumite Marty Neer who was gracious enough to send it prepayment......We're not sure if it's an E9th or C6th finger.....I need a replacement for the 10th string of the C6th (lower) neck
From the top of the radius (where the string rests)....it measures :
4-1/4 inches to the boittom tip (along the straight side)
13/16 " to the string pin
2-13/16 " the top pull rod hole
Is there anyone out there with the answer? |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2007 6:27 pm
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Tony,
I believe you have a C6 raise finger! I just measured a spare lower finger I have that came from a S10 guitar I reworked a few years ago. They use C6th changers. It measures about 3 7/8" overall and the raise finger should extend about 7/16" beyond the lower finger. Is your raise finger more like 4 5/16" overall?? If so, I think you've got what you need.
Happy New Year, Tony and give my best to Karen. It was great to see you two last night!
Lynn |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 31 Dec 2007 6:28 pm
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I think you have the right part Tony. I have an E9th finger and it measures 4.8 overall, and 3.312 to the first puller hole, The distance to the string pin is the same as yours, so I think your in business
Jim Park |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 31 Dec 2007 8:52 pm
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Lynn & Jim.......
You guys are right. Re-measurement shows the changer finger to be 4-9/32" total length, which is close enough for government work to Lynn's figure. So I guess I do have a lower neck raise finger.
Now comes the easy part....pulling off the neck, removing the strings/spring/changer and swapping out the raise fingers. I have to wait until my wife leaves for the Mac-World convention in 2 weeks before the project can truly commence.....I'll try and post some pix.
Marty, thx for sending the part.....I'll get a check out to you on Wednesday....Lynn, I'll be i touch..Happy Birthday.
Thx all, Tony |
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