L. T. E. - Seeking Great Solid State Tone

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

I have it. Lowered Tonal Expectations.

I backed up a group of friends this past weekend for their concert at Hawai'i Theater. Up until showtime my old tweed Fender Deluxe was working just fine... without the frypan plugged in, studio-quiet.

Then suddenly mid-show, a snap, then a crackle, then a pop... then more and more. Then 2 minutes later (as I'm sitting on stage freaking out) hissing. I finally decided to shut off the amp when the airy fwhooshing sound arrived.

After the show, the soundman just gave me wise looks like "Aha you damn kid, see why should've listened to me and gone direct?"

So I'm thinking of calling it quits on tubes, as gorgeous sounding as they can be. I'm on a quest now to find a solid-state amp that can deliver "great tone".

I suppose I'm pretty narrow minded about the tone I like to use (that 1940s Hawaiian clarinetey stuff) but I'm willing to take a little off the tone factor to get more reliability. Perhaps somebody out there with tone preferences for "the old time stuff" has had success with the lap steel - solid state amp combo? No reverb, just the basic setup.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 16 February 2006 at 01:10 AM.]

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Jeff, I love the sound of old tube amps too.
I usually use at least 2 amps at shows, one Tube and one Solid State - a Fender Steel King. I'm not going to try to tell you it sounds exactly like a vintage tube amp, but it does sound great for lap and console steel.

When you use the 2 amps you get the best of both worlds, and if one of them takes a dump you still have sound. The show must go on . .

Rick Garrett · From: Tyler, Texas

I don't know nearly as much about amps as a bunch of these guys but, I recently aquired an Evans 120 watt parlor amp that has better string seperation and tone than anything I've ever played through. I had been using a session 500 with my lap steel and the tone was really good but this Evans is better and cleaner sounding by far. Another added bonus for me is that my sustain has increased by a unmistakable margin. IN all fairness, I have taken the volume pedal out of the loop and I'm not sure if that has contributed to the sustain I'm getting now. Another thing I really like about this Evans amp is that it is as quiet as can be till I play. Every steel amp I've ever used made some noise while sitting idle except this Evans.

Rick
P.S. Almost forgot to mention, my Evans "Eighty" amp weighs about 40 pounds.

[This message was edited by Rick Garrett on 16 February 2006 at 04:39 AM.]

Keith Cordell · From: San Diego

In my opinion the Webb 614E is the one. I have heard lots of SS amps, developed an intense distaste for most of them and then during a visit with Garland Nash I heard a Webb. He thought it was a tube amp- before I looked into the rear of the amp, so did I. Very warm, clear and lots of variables to dial in your tone.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

There is no solid state amp that will give you the sound and feel of a tube amp. If there was then you would see legions of guitar players start using them. So with that said, you might try a set up where you have a tube front end via a nice preamp (with a direct out for your soundman) and then one of the small solid state power amps like the Stewart that some of the pedal players are using and a nice small cab with a 12" speaker.

Try a PODXt in the place of the pre. It has models of many amps or you can write your own program for a sound you like.

Lastly, take you Fender in and have it serviced. With a good cap/preamp resistor/tube job, it should be good for at least another 10-20 years before you have to do it again.

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Mike D · From: Phx, Az

That's like giving up on cars because you once got a flat tire Jeff.
Get it repaired (or tubes replaced) and carry on. If the tone you want is in tubes then there's no substitute.

------------------
Half-assed bottleneck and lap slide player. Full-assed Builder of resonator instruments.

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

Jeff -- I'd suggest the Peavey 112. Yeah, you might have some friends laugh at you, but it's a great, solid state amp. A couple of weeks ago when I had to battle some tube problems with an old Magnatone, I had a similar revelation -- about selling my tubes and just sticking with the three solid states I've got (I can't keep spending money on fixing tube amps). Besides, unless you're playing at rather loud volumes (and I don't think many of your Hawaiian gigs would call for that), there's really no distinction between tube and solid state. It's when you kick in a tube amp for more ballsy stuff that you hear the "warmth" and harmonics of tubes. I know many will disagree, and this certainly is my humble opinion. The Peavey Nashville 112 (and maybe you don't want to have an amp that says "Nashville" on it!) is really geared to steel guitar -- or so I believe the hype. I'm sure you've read all the opinions of many pros who think it's the best thing to come around since...well, the last Peavey.

Al

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Jeff, I think the suggestion of two amps on stage is where it's at. You only have to use one and the spare is there in case of a problem. You could even have two tube amps sitting up there. The amp modes going through the board never sound right to me with what comes out of the mains/monitors, but a lot guys today like it? What about the Peavy that pedal steel guys are into, thats a proven transistor amp? I will always only use tubes for guitar (1965 Deluxe). For steel I use a Hybrid half tube/half transistors. It was cheap and loud.

Blake Hawkins · From: Florida

Jeff, I use a 1953 Fender Tweed Deluxe
every day for practice and also for some of our steel guitar jams.
I've had this same amp since 1959 and the only completely original parts in it are the power transformer and the Jensen speaker.
Tube amps, especially old ones need a bit of maintaince.
Since I'm a tech, I can do it myself.
Once or twice a year, I put it in the shop and check all the voltages and look at the waveforms on a 'scope.
I'll check the tube sockets for tightness and clean the pins on the tubes.
For many years I only used NOS American tubes.
Finally ran out of them and started buying imports.
Pretty quickly I learned not to use Chinese tubes.
Right now, I have Sovtek 6V6-GT tubes
but I have also used JJ Teslas with good results.
Back when I giged for "money" I carried
a complete set of spare tubes, so that If I got some noise I could quickly switch them out. Also carried spare fuses.
Because, if the rectifier blew it would usually take the fuse with it.
The smaller tubes are 6SC7 in my amp but may be 12AX7 in your amp if it is newer.
In any event, they are both the same.
If you start getting some noise, you can simply swap them and it will give you a temporary fix.
Hope this helps. I have solid state amps too for when I need some power, but the old Deluxe is a part of the family and most anything sounds good with it.
Blake

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Jeff,

I have played through Peavey 112's a couple of times in the past few years and was impressed. Talk to Chris Kennison, he has one and I assume he is still happy with it.

IMHO Peavey made a big mistake naming the amp "Nashville 112". It's a great amp for many types of music, Jazz included. The word "Nashville" and it's country music connotation scare away too many people who would really like this amp.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 16 February 2006 at 07:45 AM.]

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

alot of great suggestions here, among my favorites are:
keep your tube amp and have it repaired/serviced regularly (if you are worried about it conking out mid-set again get an old lightweight SS amp head and throw that in your trunk for emergency backup)

the tube preamp is a great idea, many graet tube preamp pedals or small rack type thingys out there. also lots of amplifiers are hybrid so the preamp will be tube and the power section will be SS, old musicmans or the new evans (I think?) for example.

I'd just stick with the tubes and keep on truckin. Throw an old 100$ solid state sunn in your trunk for energency or get one of those tiny crates for emergency only

TOOOOOOOBS 4eva! lol

John Bushouse · Posted 16 Feb 2006 8:45 am

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Jeff, the Nashville 112 will probably be a good choice. I'm considering one.

I play (mostly) a Fender Dual 8 Pro. trap. pickups (C6th & B11th) through a Webb 6-14E. The Webb is 225 watts with a 4 ohm JBL speaker. It has a better tone with higher than practice volume; but I'm looking for something that will sound better than the Webb at moderate to low volume.

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Man, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but if I hear in my mind of the tone Jeff's going for, I don't think he can get that with a steel amp designed for a modern steel sound. It's kind of like with the Remington Steels. AWESOME STEEL with equally AWESOME TONE -- just not a vintage sounding tone, at least from any clips I've heard, or the one time I heard a cat playing one live through a 4x12" Fender DeVille tube amp (I still plan to own a Remington someday, BTW). It sounded fantastic, but still had a more modern sound to it, at least to my ears. Did I mention I think they sound AWESOME? It's just not a "one=bad, one=good" thing (though with my bending-over-backwards to explain my point, someone will still probably take it that way, but I hope not).

Anyway, I digress. Since I got my '36 Electar, I noticed IMMEDIATELY that this little steel took to a small wattage/small speaker tube amp like a duck to water. My Fenders sound good though it, but that 70 year old CC pickup seems to want to go through an amp with that wattage/size. It also sounds good through the 12-watt Princeton with the old 10" Jensen, but likes the 5-watter more. I've tried it with my old Super Reverb, and my Deluxe, and while good, not nearly as creamy and old-timey sounding, with a lot more of those delicious harmonic flavor buds. I think driving that amp just on the verge of clipping has everything to do with that.

I'm probably all wet on this, but that's what I've found in my own experience, anyway. YMMV...

Just an edit to clarify I'm not talking Jimmy Page distortion here -- just a very warm, barely clipping edge here.
------------------
Todd James Weger --
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, A6, B11); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (C6, B11/A6); Regal resonator (C6)

[This message was edited by Todd Weger on 16 February 2006 at 10:23 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Dewitt Scott used one of those Peavey’s with a Fry Pan steel on his basic C6 lap steel course put out on Mel Bay, and I think his sound on the CD that came with the course is one of the best sounding steels I've ever heard, even to this day. The amp you use to record with can be a small tube amp and the one for playing out can be something loud and reliable like the right SS. The truth of the matter is that most people are not tone junkies like a dedicated musician can be and they can’t tell too much difference without a relative point of reference? Live sound is always a challenge. How many times have you played the same room in a row and never touched the controls on your amp but the room sounds different every day. I think it’s the air pressure changing but I really don’t know what causes that to happen?

Mike Neer · From: NJ

After owning many great tube amps, including most of the sought after ones, I must say that the Peavey 130 Special (single 12" speaker) I've used on countless gigs has never let me down. In fact, once I changed the speaker in it, I actually grew to love the sound. It is an old model that can be had for about $200.

It is not the greatest tone I've ever had, but certainly the most workable and consistent. Just takes a while to dial it in.

I had a 1965 Fender Super Reverb that was nearly mint because I just didn't want to drag it around and beat it up. Took it to a gig the week before I sold it, and damn, it was the finest sound I'd ever had. But, most importantly, I learned that I could live without it. I recently did a recording session with my Fry Pan plugged into a tweed Fender Bassman--couldn't really dig the sound at all, but for guitar it would have been great.

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I recently purchased a PB200 bass amp from Carvin. It has 160 watts SS with a 15" speaker/ high frequency metal tweeter and a lot of E.Q. stuff. Man, it sounds great for bass and it's lightweight. I can also use it for steel with a delay pedal and it sound great once you dial it in. More bang for the buck is always cool with me. Jeff, this is a great amp for stand up bass and the price is right? The Carvin needs a fan on the back, other than that it’s a good deal.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Forum member Brad Sarno ... may have the ultimate answer to your LTE ...

Dave "The Hula Monster" ... was over on night and whipped out his Black Box ...

He uses Peavey amps with the Black Box ... and wanted to test drive some of my stuff ... thru the setup he uses.

I have an 80's Peavey Jazz Classic w/ a 15" Black Widow ... and when The Monster hit that Black Boxs button ...

You could really hear a change ... very, very sweeeeeetttttt !!!!

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Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

Okay,I amend my "answer" to include Rick's tale -- I, too, use Brad's Black Box for all guitar work (pedal, lap, guitar, bass), so the sound I get from my 112 (or 400 or Sho Bud amp), with the Black Box, is like playing through a tube amp. So, you get the best of both worlds: the reliability of solid state, but the sound of a tube.

Al

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Al, would it be OK to use Brad's Black Box at the end of the cord that plugs into the amp? Is this defeating? I use a 10ft. George L cord __ no volume pedal.

Bill Creller · From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)

I haven't heard a solid state amp yet that I like. I have a Fender side-kick which collects dust, I had a new Fender Acoustisonic Jr a year and a half ago which I gave to my niece to get it out of the way.
The only one I use rarely is a micro cube for convention jams after hours.
Tube amps require some maintenance occasionally, but if all the caps are replaced, they will run a long time.
Someone here mentioned a 6SC7 tube, which hasn't been built for many years, and my old National would eat one every six months, so I now have a "subtitube" in it from Groove tubes. It's an adapter which plugs into the old octal socket and uses a 12AX7 , which is the most common pre-amp tube around now, and a variety of them are available.
Just replacing all the tubes can make a big difference.

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

Rick -- the BB goes right in between your guitar and the amp, so, sure -- from your cable in the guitar to the BB, then into the amp. It doesn't matter if your cord is 10' long.

Al

George Rout · From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

From the old school.......there's nothing like the warm sound of tubes. I have four. The one I like the most is an early 1950's Bogen Challenger CHA-33 (33 watt) through a 12" speaker baffle. I have a Fender tube reverb before the amp as I like just a touch of reverb.
Geo

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