| Author |
Topic: where do i find it |
Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 1:35 pm |
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i need help again ,
i want to learn a new song but it has a Eb in it . and i have no idea which fret or pedals/levers
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Moon in Alaska
From:
Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 1:39 pm
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I hope this does not sound stupid !! LOL
It is located 1 fret below E....And With a and b pedals down
[E9th] it is at the 6th fret..
Moon
_________________
<<Moon>>
==Carter S-10==
1962 Fender 400
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 1:46 pm
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thanks Moon,
...i knew that , i was just having a Blonde moment haha
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 2:24 pm
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| Another handy location for an Eb chord is on the 2nd fret with the A pedal and F knee lever. Also you have the Eb at the 11th fret with no pedals or levers. |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 4:02 pm
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Lots of old Gospel music is written in the key of Eb. Us old church players used to get a lot of experience in that key.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 4:31 pm
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In the key of Eb the blues scale is all the black keys on the piano. Some guitarists tune down a semitone to make it easier for the keyboard player, and to allow themselves to bend the strings easier.
Why not transcribe the tune into a key that's easier to play, or play it all up at the 11th fret ?  |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 5:07 pm
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thanks fellas
the song i'm working on is " if your going to do me wrong ( do it right) "
its in the key of Bb
where do you suggest i play the Cm at ?
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 5:33 pm
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Calvin, may I suggest something?
Try to learn all the possible positions for ONE chord, on your basic string groups (3,4,5,6,8 and 10).
Look out for the following relationship:
First position (any chord, any fret, Eg: F at the first fret), no pedals, no lever.
+ 3 frets up with A&F = the same chord,
+ another 2 frets up with E = the same chord (as a 6th or adding the B-pedal as a 7th).
+ another 2 frets with A&B = the same chord (adding the 7th string as a 6th).
+ another 5 frets, no pedals = back to the open position (we have completed 12 frets so, it's the octave).
| Tab: |
A&F E A&B open A&F E A&B open A&F
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E stands for E-to-Eb-lower-lever.
F stands for E-to-F-raise-lever.
"open" stand for NO pedals nor lever, this is where you center you map... G being "open" at the 3rd fret or C being at the 8th fret, and so forth.
DON'T learn pedal and knee lever positions as to fret numbers but as a relationship to the "open" position or the next pedal-lever position. This way you learn it ONCE for all 12 keys ad this relationship repeats with the exact same formula for EVERY chord.
This has to become natural to you (forward and backwards)
Minors can be found using the same formula just shifted 3 frets higher (relative minor 7th's).
Another way to look at it is inversed from the above, this time connecting likely chords of progressions:
If the I-chord is plaid open (no pedals, Eg: G at the third fret, this is also your VI-minor... previously this read as III-minor, error which has been corrected).
Your closest IV-chord would be at the same fret with A&B pedals, using the same math, this also is your II-minor position.
Up two frets with A&B you have a V which is again also your III-m.
Having this basic road map always in mind, you can find any relative chord easily starting from the closest chord off this layout.
... J-D.
Last edited by J D Sauser on 30 Nov 2007 6:31 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 5:51 pm
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J D
the A F combination rarely works with the type of music i play ....classic country. i have tried it repeatedly and just can't get it to sound right with this kinda music. the A/f seems more suitable for Jazz..... of course i have been wrong before
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 6:01 pm
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I was told it was Lloyd Green who was credited for that lever (E-to-F raise)... so, it must work for country. Actually it works for any kind of music... even hip hop  ... just kidding.
Try a neat lick with A&F: Holding the F-lever engaged all time, thumb pick the 6th string, alternating with finger picking strings 5 & 4 whilst pumping (snapping) the A-pedal up and down... once you get the right phrasing, you will have yourself a new little country lick rite there (sorry I can't play it to you, I don't have a PSG around). (There was an error of sting groups, which is now corrected).
The A&F position is also good to keep in mind as it covers well as minor position of the same chord with the A-pedal only (and without it too, as a m7th).
... J-D.
Last edited by J D Sauser on 30 Nov 2007 8:52 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 6:06 pm
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Hi Calvin,
Depending on how you tune, the A/F combination chords can be a bit tricky intonation-wise sometimes. That's been my greatest struggle with them, but -
What that combination gives you is a major triad, pure and simple... which is very much a part of the classic country you love. It's no fancy jazz chord or anything. It's nice, 'cause you can drop off the A pedal and make it into a 7th chord, which makes for a nice movement used all the time in country music.
Anyway, the only other thing I can add is: I think JD's advice is really good, and well explained. It's worth having another look at. You'll find that knowing the three main inversions of every major chord is the bread and butter of getting around the instrument. For what it's worth...
Have fun,
-John |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 6:18 pm
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Also learn to look behind the nut... like there was frets behind it (in the key head): IF there where any frets there, D "open" would be 2 frets behind the nut, thus, using our little formula above, we find that the first (lowest) D-chord available is... 3 frets above that imaginary position with A&F... on the 1st fret!! You will be surprised how many overlook that position.
And this puts your Eb just one fret higher at the 2nd fret with A&F, as Erv pointed out (Forumla: Eb=E-1+3AF )
I might also add, that 2 frets below the "open" position (3 frets above the A&B position) you would have a 7th of the particular chord with the A-pedal only. It is somewhat incomplete sounding, but it explains the reasoning behind a lot of slides as a passing chord and also pocket for country style speed picking and west coast style playing.
... J-D.
Last edited by J D Sauser on 30 Nov 2007 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Moon in Alaska
From:
Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 6:52 pm
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Yes, Calvin...J.D.'s posts are really good to establish your thinking of the E9th neck !!
I have allways played E9th pedal as a road map. My thinking starts at "home"...If I am in the key of G, "home" is fret 3..From there I stricky play in relation to that. Of course,
the 10th fret with A and B pedals down is "home" again. If you create this kind of road map of the neck, you can play in any key just as easy. If you have me playing a song in Bb and you ask me a certain chord in the song, I will have to stop and figure it out. What I am saying, I don't worry what the name of a chord is as I go..Just the position away from "home".
Reread J.D.'s post carefully....
Good luck..
Moon
_________________
<<Moon>>
==Carter S-10==
1962 Fender 400
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 7:27 pm
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| Calvin Walley wrote: |
thanks fellas
the song i'm working on is " if your going to do me wrong ( do it right) "
its in the key of Bb
where do you suggest i play the Cm at ? |
If the key is Bb, Cm is II-m.
A II-m(7th) is the same a IV (relative minor!).
So, if you want it simple, based on my final exercise on my first post on this thread; Bb "open" is on the 6th fret... the closest IV is...?
Yes! On the same fret, with A&B or two frets below with E only... and so forth (the road map unwraps again).
So again, if you know how a chord repeats left and right, you know'em all.
Then you learn where your closest IV and V chords are, relative to ANY these chord inversions and the basic concept that I is also VI-m, IV = II-m and thus V = II-m. Once you have mastered these two steps you can't miss finding any Mayor and minor chord easily, since those in between will be at max one or two frets left or right from these basic possitions.
Since I seem to have a hard time sleeping tonight, here's some food for thought (it may not seem so at the beginning, but it relates):
Many have problems with minor keys (I know, this is OFF subject). We all seem to feel that we have to learn the instrument and for that, music as itself, all over again. Now, just with above example, we see that minor chords don't come from another planet. Actually, once the root is shifted a minor third, they are the same chord (the chronology only changes) as our "standard" Mayor chord. It makes sense, because songs in minor (key), do not sound "wrong" to our ear, so it can't be that different.
Well, in music EVERY thing just repeats itself. What doesn't repeat itself, sounds odd to us... or just plain wrong (yes, we're coming back to my previous statements about our brain already knowing it all, thus it can point out things which do not match stored patterns).
So, what's so strange about minor keys?
When we take the minor chord as the I-minor, most if not all chords seem to follow a progression we have never seen before, one can find III-May's and IV-minors and b's and #'s which just seem designed to break our balls.
So, why can they still sound right? Do we really have an acceptance for two separate musical worlds of right and wrongs?
Possibly not. Our ear accepts this pattern as being right: I, IIm, IIIm, IV, V, VIm, VIIdim and back to I.
If you line up the chords of a song which is said to be written in a minor key, but then shift it's progression left or right along the above accepted chronology of minors and Mayors... you may find that most can be made to match again that pattern, just that I-m then will not be I but some other positioned minor chord.
This is why I always stress ONE point in most of my posts to this subject. Learn RELATIONSHIPS... all that will follow will fall into the same system!
Names (C, D, E, or call it Do, Re, Mi...) have NO inherent relationship, thus keys look so different to those who use this system (if one then can call that a system at all). On the steel guitar there is NO reason to learn any key differently than an other.
Look out for repeating patterns of distance relationships, whether it's single note melodies, progression or the build up of chords. It will prove to you to be the most universal approach to understand, organize and apply your music and it relates the best to how your brain stores musical patterns and how you see it on your instrument.
I think I can finally call it a day now ... J-D. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 8:18 pm
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John
how did you ever get the A/F to sound right ?
no matter what i do with it, it sounds like something is out of tune. i have tried playing it slightly behind/ahead of the fret, as well as dead on the fret . if i can make it work i would like using it as its very convenient
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 8:20 pm
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| J.D., I REALLY enjoy your post.You explain it so well. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 8:24 pm
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Calvin, hope you don't mind me hopping in here, I engage my F lever and press my A pedal, and then tune my E strings until it sounds right to my ear while playing a string group like 4,5,6 or 3,4,5. Shouldn't take very much. I tune my D lever the same way, except press the B pedal.
Your right, it's a tough one on the ears if it's out a little. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 8:35 pm
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John, Moon, James, thanks a bunch for your kind words! ... J-D.
Calvin:
As John Steele pointed out, the E-to-F raise can indeed be tricky to tune.
IF you tune to "just intonation", meaning that you do not tune all notes "straight up" to relative to 440, one easy way would be to tune it using Jeff Newman's tuning chart: http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php
Still, I would add that you tune it with the A-pedal engaged.
Here's the thinking behind tuning this change in JI:
We tune the A-pedal as being the M3rd of the open A chord (the B-pedal creates the root to that chord).
In just intonation, the M3rd is tuned considerably flat, just like your G# is to the open E tuning.
So the A-pedal pull is tuned flattened.
When we play the A&F inversion, the A-pedaled note becomes the root and the the F-levered note the new M3rd. Now, your F-levered M3rd has to be tuned again flat, relative to the A-pedaled note (which is flat already!)... so the E-to-F-change is tuned "double"-flat.
When tuned that way, your May A&F inversion will sound "in tune". The problem then however will be that using the F-lever only (for the 7th sound), will come out f l a t relative to the pretty much straight up b7th note on strings 5 & 10.
still can't sleep... J-D. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 8:47 pm
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thanks J D
just so you will know
i am printing your posts in order to study them better. also i have been using Jeffs tuning charts from day one. i will try tuning the way you said and see what happens
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 9:02 pm
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Well, I hope it comes out right, Calvin.
Always keep in mind to pump your pedals and levers in several times while tuning a pull, until it repeats stably. If you use your ears (you must since it sounded like jazz to you before  ), try to make the 4th string (F-lever) sound sweet with the A-pedaled 5th string, then check it against the open 6th and 3rd string (A-pedal still engaged!).
Proceed in a similar manner with the 8th string against 6 and 10(with the A-pedal).
Why tuning with the A-pedal engaged (even using a chart)? Because it affects your guitar's tuning when a pedal is engaged. Some call it body-(drop)-detunig... some will swear on the grave of their mother, that (only) their guitars does not have such problem... still, most tune E's with A&B down and the E-to-F-lever with the A-pedal down.
Since you are printing this (I am flattered btw., thanks for the attention) I might point out that in my second post where I indicated a little lick using A&F there was a mistake of string groups which has now been corrected:
It read:
Try a neat lick with A&F: Holding the F-lever engaged all time, thumb pick the 5th string, alternating with finger picking strings 4 & 3 whilst pumping (snapping) the A-pedal up and down... once you get the right phrasing, you will have yourself a new little country lick rite there (sorry I can't play it to you, I don't have a PSG around).
The correct stings are 6 with the thumb alternating with 5 and 4 together with both fingers (index & middle), whilst snapping the A-pedal up and down (F engaged at all time).
This btw, leads nicely into some run ups with B&C (just tinker with it a little) or bounces between the open position of the same chord (3 frets below) or the open IV-chord (2 frets above) and their relative b7th-sound position with the A-pedal, two frets below the respective open position (change grip to string group 5,4 and 3 for that part).
Another very, but very classic country lick using A&F is sliding smoothly back and forth between the A&F and open position (3 frets below) of the same chord... you may discover it to be the key movement to a very well known intro... just hunt down the correct string groups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9J7XE-ctMU
... J-D. |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 10:36 pm
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Calvin,
Your invitation to expand on my tuning comment is akin to asking someone to insert their head in the gulliotine, but for you, I'll take the chance.
First of all, everything JD has said, you can take it to the bank.
To oversimplify it, when you use the A/F combination, you are using what used to be a Third as the root.
(Note: I am assuming you have tuned your C# (A pedal) beatless in relation to your A (B pedal)
The Third is arguably the most contentious interval in the scale when it comes to arguing about intonation. If you tune your steel so the thirds ring pure and beatless (as such prominent players as P.F. advocate) A pure third will sound beatless about 15 cents flat of what your tuner will tell you is right. That is the reason the A/F combination is so tricky. Many prominent players use this method, and guys like Lloyd Green have mastered the enviable technique of slanting their bar to compensate for this shortage in the interval... a shortage that has been the topic of debate for at least a thousand years.
When you lay another third above that, if you follow the Beatless theory, your third _above_ the root (which used to be a third, but is now a root 15 cents short of equal temperament) Your new beatless third will be a further 15 cents short of what the tuner will tell you is correct. 15 + 15 = 30 cents, or 30/100ths of a half tone.
This is my opinion, and my opinion only, but whether or not one agrees with it or not, it's a point to be contended with:
If you tune beatless to your satisfaction when you're playing alone in the living room, you will have a confict when you play with other people, whose instruments are scaled to Equal Temperament. Equal temperament is basically the practice of dividing the twelve note scale into twelve equal portions, regardless of how they "beat" against one another.
Some maintain the contention that only beatless intervals are acceptable, but eventually one has to accept that functioning within a musical community which is tuned to Equal Temperament requires some rethought. As Buddy Emmons so succintly put it:
"Of course, If you don't like the people in your band, then tune any way you wish."
So there you go, Calvin, there's the convoluted explanation to your question. And that's why I tune ET. I'm sure others will disagree, and that's fine.
And that's why your A/F combination sounds out of tune sometimes. I explain this despite the risk of being crucified at the altar of Phythagorus for my comments.
I realize some of this might sound like overly complicated mumbo-jumbo, but that's the bald truth.
But, my earlier comments still stand: JD's contention that you should get familiar with the three different inversions of every major chord are a basic building block in understanding the E9th neck, and also equip you for further comments regarding "pockets" of scale tones on the neck.
Attempting not to be convoluted, but failing miserably, I remain,
-John
Last edited by John Steele on 1 Dec 2007 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 30 Nov 2007 11:45 pm minor chord, positions
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| If you use the Emmons set up on pedals, use 2 & 3 with strings 456 or 345 at the 6th fret for the minor. At the 11th fret just use pedal 1 and a string group for the minor(groups can be 345, 456, 568, 68 10, 46 10, 358, 356, 58 10, 5 A & F combo - tune the 4th string raise to the 8th string raise, once the 8th string is tuned to a F with KL engaged. When you use the pedal 1 with F KL, down 3 frets, you can also add pedal 2 for another chord. You'll hear it. From fret 1, you can use the A & F to get to the open Bb position. Starting at fret 1, play 456 with pedals 1,2 down, slide up to fret 2 and engage F KL, releasing pedal 2 and holding pedal 1. Move down 2 frets and then to the Bb position w/o pedals. A & F combo is a whole book in itself. Green & Rugg are where I picked up most of my A & F stuff years ago. Today I listen to T. White & M. Johnson a lot and pick up a few things from them sometimes. It never ends. |
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 1 Dec 2007 5:49 am
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Calvin, James is absoutely right on tuning the A/F .... actually in Classic Country the A and F are used a heck of a lot
Micky Byrne United Kingdom |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2007 7:12 am
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Calvin,
With the E tuned straight up at 440, I tune my F to 433 and my A to 438.5, this makes it sound in tune to me.
You can find C minor at the 4th fret with your E strings lowered to Eb. Also at the 11th fret with your G# strings raised to A. And if you're good with the B & C pedals, C minor is also located at the 6th fret, strings 3, 4, 5 & 6. |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 1 Dec 2007 8:10 am
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| Quote: |
Also at the 11th fret with your G# strings raised to A.
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Erv, I'm not sure, but I think you meant to say "with your B string raised to C# with A pedal"
-John |
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