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Topic: A book on the Equal Temper/Just Intonation problem |
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 13 Nov 2007 10:43 am |
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For those of you who thought us Forum nerds are the only ones who argue about such stuff, here's a whole book about it.
"How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (And Why You Should Care)"
click here
Last edited by David Doggett on 15 Nov 2007 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Larry Strawn
From:
Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Nov 2007 12:07 pm
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Well,,
I guess that book will probably ruin my theory of "get it where it sounds pleasing to the ear, then just play the damm thing"! 
Larry 
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Nov 2007 12:20 pm
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| Quote: |
| How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony... |
Ha! To quote the gun-rights advocate comeback, "It's not ET that ruined harmony, but the people who misused it." 
In my best Foghorn Leghorn - "That's a joke, son." |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2007 1:53 pm
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David,this is a BAD,BAD,BAD, subject to bring up,I know it's stupid,but the WORST knock down,drag out fight I ever saw on the forum was about the CORRECT way to tune a steel guitar,NO ONE agreed and it got NASTY,don't you know.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 13 Nov 2007 7:30 pm
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The correct way to tune a steel guitar...
is the one that works for YOU!
End of story.
The discussion of tuning theories got WAY to personal here.
Yet there is much validity in the books premise.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2007 7:58 pm
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David you are absolutely right,The right way to tune a steel is what pleases the one playing it,[I played guitar for years,EVERY time I would let someone play my guitar,without exception,they would tweak at least one string to please their ear]The post I was talking about a year ago about the correct way to tune a steel,was the most silly thing I have ever seen on the forum,newbees and well known pros were at each other like cats and dogs,I believe if some of them were face to face,there would have been blood shed just over how to tune a steel,ridicuious don't you know.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Ron Page
From:
Penn Yan, NY USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2007 9:31 am
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I'm just a hack, but I'd personally want to tune in a way that sounds good with the rest of the band. Whatever that is, Just or ET.
I still use Jeff Newman's chart but there are a couple of things about it that I think I need to tweak. I'll address them if I ever get to a point where tuning one of my bigger problems.
_________________
HagFan
Emmons Lashley LeGrande II |
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Bobby Caldwell
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Nov 2007 12:07 pm
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| I think this is a great post. Having played with many many steel players over the years I found some to be really in tune and some not so in tune. I think maybe some the great steel players who always sound in tune could share with all of us how they tune. What do you think? Some of them who come to mind. are "The Big E", Ron Elliott, "Papa John, Lloyd Green, Mike Sweeny, Russ Hicks, Paul Franklin, and Mike Johnson, just to name a few. Please guys share with all of us how you tune. I think this would be wonderful. Hoping to hear from you, Bobby |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 15 Nov 2007 2:59 pm
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Well, I didn't really mean to start a tuning thread. I just thought I'd throw this book out there for those interested in such things. Many guitarists and steelers seem surprised that tuning strictly by a meter (Equal Temper) gives different results than tuning harmonically by ear (Just Intonation), and they don't have a good understanding of why that is and which method they should use. It's a little bit complicated, and some people get irritated by discussions about it. There's quite a bit about it out there on the internet if you do a little searching, or you could check out this book (haven't read it myself). Ultimately everyone has to find the way that suits their own ears. Some people may not want to get involved with the theory behind the problem, but I would think everyone should look into it far enough to try both ways and hear the difference. Many people settle on something in between.
Some top pros have discussed this a number of times in the history of the Forum. But it would take a lot of searching in some really long threads to find them. As I remember, the gist of it is that the Newman charts are pretty much taken from how Lloyd Green once tuned for Jeff by ear. They are very close to pure JI. Buddy Emmons use to tune harmonically by ear, but more recently tunes mostly straight up to a meter, except he tunes his major thirds a few Hz or a few cents flat (depending on which of his quotes you read). Paul Franklin tunes harmonically by ear, and has said that is how most top pros tune. Jerry Byrd tuned harmonically by ear.
Some people claim you can't tune JI and play in tune with keyboards and other instruments tuned ET. But that is not true, and most of the recorded music we have always heard is a mixture of ET and JI tuned instruments. But it does seem to be a general finding that ET sounds worst when you are playing by yourself, but can sound not so bad when playing with a group. Whether tuned ET or JI or somewhere in between, good hands and ears will split the differences and get acceptable intonation. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Nov 2007 5:08 pm
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I think it is important to have a method of tuning that you are confident in.
I have chosen the one that fit me best and have not changed it for well over thirty years.
ET. Same as an old geezer I know of that has done prety well with it...
It has been well aired that there is more than one way to achieve a method that allows you to play "in tune".
However, as a friend of mine used to say:
"There are only so may ways to fry cat food."
EJL |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 24 Nov 2007 6:37 pm
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| I think reading anything related to music is interesting. As far as tuning the steel, with cabinet drop and strings that vary and mechanical issues and quality of your ear, it is impossible to tune a steel to a point that it will even come close to perfect. Sometimes being as much as 12 cents out is better. Example Stereo sounds better and gives more separation if one side is detuned. Perfect pitch and perfect or muted harmonics sounds very dull and must times some bad harmonics give the music character. "If you want to stand out and cut through, play a little out of tune, usually a little sharp." "Most of the time you'll be more in tune than the singer." The harder you pick a fretted instrument the sharper the pitch so in order to be in tune with the bass and the guitar in a loud band, I have to tune up at lest 4 cents higher than than the Newman chart and sometimes as much as 12 cents in these country want a be death metal bands. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Nov 2007 8:52 pm
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| Quote: |
| Sometimes being as much as 12 cents out is better. -BL- |
That's a pretty popular opinion.
EJL/HFLE |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 24 Nov 2007 9:12 pm
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Or at least a pretty apparent practice...
My favorite part is the book coupled with it on Amazon;
Temperament: How Music Became a Battleground
for the Great Minds of Western Civilization
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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