student model vs. pro

Jason Putnam · From: Tennessee, USA

As someone who has never played a pro level guitar (emmons, mullen, zum, etc.), I would love to know the differences. There has to be some otherwise every player out there would own a 1000 dollar student model. I guess I just need to play one to see the difference. I have worked hours upon hours playing stuff and listening to others and my tone doesn't sound as good. Is it me, or the guitar? I guess only one way to find out.
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1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings

Bob Knight · From: Bowling Green KY

It's not the guitar. Wink

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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I would call the Stage One an "economy" guitar, not a student model.
The student models have inadequate changers or cabinets.
The Stage One is a good solid guitar, suitable for pro use.
Or, Bob's right. Get better hands.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

"I have worked hours upon hours playing stuff and listening to others and my tone doesn't sound as good" ... thats because those "others" you have been listening to, spent years and years playing stuff... tone is in your hands, and comes from your heart, just be patient and keep playing, and one day your tone will be just as good as anyone else's...

Db
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I am gonna answer the question...

Correct on the Zum Stage One, it's a nice little Steel and I too would refer to it as economy rather than student. It can do many things, up to a point. Then it may not be able to accommodate the player.

I am talking about adding to or changing copedents, not playing.

The question here is "what are the differences" not can you gig with the Steel. Any somewhat experienced player can gig with any Steel, student or not.

What you can do with the student or Stage One is set it up to it's max ability and gig with it. You cannot exceed it's maxed out setup.

A Pro Model Steel allows the player to have endless setup configurations. Add to what you have, subtract from what you have, make pull changes based on what YOU want.

We all know what I am saying here, it's got nothing to do with a players ability.

The primary reason the PRO models are called PRO Models is due to the changer being capable of multiple raises and lowers on the same string. the cross shafts can be removed and changed, the Bellcranks can be removed and placed in different positions which will accommodate the players urge to make configuration changes as desired.

Again, it's got nothing to do with actually being able to play the Instrument. They can all be played.

It's the ability to make changes if desired.
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Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Add to this discussion the fact that a number of years ago this answer would be different-----quality/playability of 'student' steels was a different matter. Some of them served their purposes as starter guitars, others were so severely compromised as to be questionable choices for learning or for playing.
New models such as the Stage One have changed the game.

Jason Putnam · From: Tennessee, USA

Thanks for the words of encouragement. But I think my post was misunderstood. I'm speaking of the tone of the instrument itself. And the feel of playing. I know I am not going to play as good as the guys who have played professionally for 30 years. But I know with other instruments like guitar and reso, there is a big difference in tone no matter what your playing level is. A 200 dollar acoustic guitar does not sound like a 3000 dollar martin. I don't care who's playing it.
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1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I know players---guys with major league top notch guitars---who take their gigs seriously and who will use a Stage One as a travel gig steel. They would not go onstage with something with which they would embarrass themselves or compromise their commitment to their band or bandleader. That satisfies me as an answer to your question.
Is is conceivable that one has to dig a little deeper to find your sound on this guitar, vs. your Emmons or Zum or Bud or Fess? I don't rule that out. But if it wasn't in there they would say uh-uh. It ain't happening.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Jason, it has a pickup chosen by Doug and Bruce to sound good.
Sadly, getting a good tone out of a steel is one of the last skills developed as you learn.
For the first eternity, you're busy trying to get all your body parts working together to do what you want.
The second eternity, you try to get all of that into making music.
The third age involves "okay, so I'm playing lines I like, how do I get my hands to make it sound good?"

The biggest thing is to just throw your picks at the strings like you mean it.
EVERY newbie starts out picking a bit tentatively, as if they're afraid every "clam" will bite.
But a tentative hand yields a weak tone. Every time. Guaranteed. STRIKE THEM STRINGS. A well-struck clam will sound better than a weakly-struck perfectly chosen note.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Greg Johnson · From: Greencastle, Pennsylvania, USA

Uh.. if they all had the same tone, Played the same, felt the same, and lastly weighed the same. We'd all be playing the same guitar. Like the importance of hands and heart theirs a big ole thing call Ears that come into play also. I have owned many steels over the years some I wish I had kept and some I was glad to let go. They were all considered pro-models. I like Chevy and my Dad's a Ford guy. So other than how far your heart wants to take you, you may always be looking for that perfect tone.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

David Anderson · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

Tonally student models sound thinner and feel a bit clunky. A pro steel will feel smooth and hopefully have a full tone with nice sustain.

I have played Carter Starters, MSA Student models, Shobud Mavericks, GFI student models, Justice Economy and The Stage One Encore. The Carter Starter, GFI student, and MSA Red Baron being the worse. The Shobud had a cool tone, but was no fun to play.

The Justice and Encore were very good. I used the Justice on a gig and have sat behind an Encore a few times now and AB'd it against my BMI through the same rig. The encore is smooth and easy to play, but doesn't have the tone the BMI has. It is a bit more scooped and thinner sounding.

Tone and smooth feel are some of the best qualities you get with a pro steel.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I own two pro-model Zums and have played a couple of Stage Ones. I love my pro models, nor am I gonna give them up. Yes, the Stage One guitars obviously lack a number of features present on the pro models. The changer is different, they're not as configurable, and it's a small S-10 frame - the latter is important to me because I'm tall and my legs get tripped up on a small guitar. But the Stage Ones I've tried played well and sounded good to me.

Another point: those of us who have been around this forum for a while also know some pro steel players (touring and studio) that use a Stage One in their work - we know because they have told us and/or we've seen them use one in clips or live. A bunch of people use these and sound great.

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I always had my eyes set on top o'the line equipment; be it steel guitars, cameras, cars or airplanes.

I've never regretted that decision/practice.

Even if I had to borrow the money, I chose to purchase the best I knew of and as a result, over the years found that my decision to buy the best was a wise decision.

One cannot get a lot out of an instrument that is simply not designed to deliver it. Music is an emotional thing and an exacting science. It's not an accident...........or a button to push.

If you choose to fall in love with an ugly person, no amount of make-up or money in the bank can make that 'person' more beautiful than the reality of the moment. More tolerable, perhaps, yet not a substitute for 'the BEST"!

John Sluszny · From: Brussels, Belgium

CARTER !

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

"The tone is all in your hands" is the biggest bunch of BS ever posted on this forum, yet the phrase perpetuates with seeming impunity. I'd like to know from the players who believe this what they use for equipment. Obviously a Carter Starter, $20 practice amp and Ernie Ball volume pedal are surely all you need to sound just like the guys playing a Mullen G2 through a Peavey amp and Hilton pedal. And I assume you never change strings until they break, why would you when the stings have nothing to do with tone? And isn't there an active thread going on right now--somewhere around 4 or 5 pages--of steel players whining about sound men killing their tone? How can that be? How can a sound man sitting 50 or 60 feet off the front of the he stage kill your tone if it's all in your hands?

Obviously how your fingers interact with the strings will impact the sound produced through the amp or sound system, but to make such a ridiculous statement as the tone being all in your hands is just insane--and untrue. Don't be suckered in by guys that say this, all it will do is make you feel inadequate for years because, let's face it, few of us will ever be Buddy Emmons, Tommy White or Dickey Overby, and I can't believe these are the only guys who can achieve or find a good tone.

Buy the best equipment you can afford and practice your @ss off, you'll find your tone.
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Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Surprised this has not been mentioned already, so here we go...

One student model that sounds on a par with its professional big brothers is the Emmons GS-10. And, it can be set up nearly the same if you can come up with the parts.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Rick, there is truth in what you say. BUT, Lloyd is gonna sound better on a Starter through a Twin (sorry, amp is HUGE) than I'm gonna sound on The Blade.
And he said he was a beginner. Sorry, even with top equipment, newbies sound like newbies.
Ask Michael Douchette about the inadequacy of the Stage 1.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

Which goes to my point that the player influences the relationship between the pick and the string. But if Lloyd Geeen and I sit at the same steel and both pick the 5th string open, we're going to have the same tone (assuming one of use doesn't go bizzerk and just slam the pick against the string). But players cannot say the tone is all in your hands and then complain that the sound man kills your tone. We can have differences of opinion on what steel and amp is better sounding, but again, if we do, then we're admitting that tone is not really in the hands.
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Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120

Jason Putnam · From: Tennessee, USA

I definitely don't think the stage one is inadequate. If I did I would not have bought one. It is a fine instrument. But I've never set behind anything else so I wanted opinions from some players who have. You don't know what ice cream is like if you've only had spinach!!
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1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I also am not a believer that your tone is all in your hands. Quite a bit of it is, but not all. Some good examples were given above. When we say that so-and-so would sound the same on brand X as he would on brand Y, do we talk ourselves into believing that because we already know it is so-and-so playing brand X? It would be interesting to see Buddy Emmons on a Carter Starter, Yamaha amp, and not allowed to play any of his signature licks, just slide up and down the neck. How many of us do you think would be able to tell it was him in a blind "taste" test?
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

Well, the Jackson BlackJack Custom ain't a student model steel, it's a pro model that can be played anywhere and is perfect for players of all levels. It's got an aluminum neck with a 24 scale fretboard and the tone, sound, and playability are incredible! I hear a lot of great things about the Zumsteel Stage One and Zumsteel Encore guitars too-never played them, but I hear they're awesome! The sound comes mainly from the player's heart, no matter if it's a beginner's steel or a pro steel

Howard Steinberg · From: St. Petersburg, Florida , USA

The "Tone" industry is huge and is supported by musicians (present company included) looking for a highly subjective "something." Typically, I don't know what it is, but I will know when I hear it. While this can be fun, time is better spent practicing.

Some things that haven't been mentioned in this thread, to any extent, include tuning, buffers and amps/settings. Playing in tune is a big part of one's overall tone. I find that tuning with offsets makes a huge difference in getting a "pro" sound. Having a buffer at the pedal or pickup or both makes a huge difference, imho, to one's sound.

It has been said that "tone," comes with time. Over time things like fast vibrato, slow vibrato, wide grips and blocking come together with work.

In responding to Jason's initial post, were it me, I would find a pro level guitar to sit under. I can remember the first time I did this and it was a mind blowing experience. Of course I was learning on a Market Rite Mark 1.
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Justice Pro Lite (4-5), Justice D-10 (8-5)x2 , Quilter Steelaire, Hilton Pedal, BJ's bar.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

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