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Topic: Major or Seventh? |
Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2007 3:37 pm |
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Grab some cover--theory incoming!
Lately, I've been studying the E9 neck restricted to the use only of A&B pedals and the E raise and lower levers. To date, I've pretty well worked out the major scale geometries for one octave of the E9 neck. I see that those major scales cover the I and V7 chord changes , but what about the IV chord?
I had origionally thought it a matter of simply shifting your perspective of the neck up 5 frets (or down 7 frets) and using the major scales there for the IV chord. That will work, but shifting gears like that gets confusing for me. First of all, I can't see the frets and as a result, large fret jumps can get a little dodgey. Ssecond, its one more complication that my befuddled brain can't always handle.
In trying to get around this problem, I realized that root seventh scale is the equivalent of the IV major scale. In other words, playing a G7 scale from C to C octave contains the notes of a C major scale. So, when a song goes to the IV chord, instead of switching gears and re-orienting to a higher or lower area of the neck, you could stay put and simply play root seventh scale, centering around the 4th tone, and that would cover the IV chord. So, in your key center, knowing where the seventh tones of the major scale are, and flatting them (without clobbering the harmony notes) is to know the root seventh, and thus, the IV major scale.
Either way of handling the IV chord will work, it seems to me, but switching to I7 scale for IV chords lets you "stay put" and keep your frame of reference--just think 7th scale for the IV.
In the case of Major chords not in the key, like with VI, II, V, I progressions, I'm not really sure what's best/simplest there. Without getting into modal studies (more brain rattling), I guess shifting your view of the neck would be the ticket. I've only looked at the use of A & B pedals and E raise/lower levers here, so maybe other pedals/levers will give a neater solution?
Its funny, when I started trying to figure all this stuff out it just seemed to get more and more complicated until I got my head around the major scales. Now, with the use of 7th scales, it seems to be all simplifying back in on itself. I know the old joke about " I know some theory, but not enough to hurt my playing". Its a funny joke, but In fact, I think theory can also greatly simplify matters and help to "throw the doors wide open".
So, I guess my question is, how would you handle "out of key" chords?
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Disclaimer! I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' around here. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2007 8:47 pm
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If you're in the key of C, the IV chord F is at the first fret. To play the C major scale over that F chord position, you will need to lower your E strings and lower your B string.
The trick here is that your 2nd pedal is not a part of the C scale at that fret - it's the flat 7. The major 7 note is the 5th string lowered. This is usually on your left vertical knee lever.
I hope I understood the question. The C major scale is available at 7 different frets (per octave), using various pedals and knee levers. Each position is different. That's the bad news. The good news is that once you learn it in C, you can move those positions up and down the neck to play in any key.
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Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2007 9:05 am
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Hi B0B,
I should have said that I am refering to the Harmonized major and seventh scales played, in the various intervals(3rd's , 6th's etc), either horizontally (from keyhead to changer and back), or vertically (from lower to higher string groups and back centering on a narrow fret spread), or any combination of the vertical and horizontal. And my reference to a "key center" meant playing these scales in the 12 fret region between the NP positions for a given key.
That 12 fret region of the neck is the frame of reference I'm using(doubled for the entire neck) , and in there, root major harmonized scales work over the I and V7 changes while root seventh harmonized scales work over the IV change.
For the I, IV, and V7 chords, that frame of reference, or key center, stays fixed and doesn't move. But, for chords not in the key like an E or A major in the key of G, the G major and seventh scales won't work like they do over the G, C, and D7 chords. For an A major chord, you'd have to shift the whole thing up two frets (5 thru 17), then all the major scale patterns would work over that A change.
My whole point was that, for the IV chord (C in this example), its not necessary to transpose patterns to different fret positions ( a new key center), like it is with major chords that aren't natural to the key (I, IV and V7 are natural to the key). But, you can't play the root major scale over the IV chord either, you have to play the root seventh scale there.
I guess I just thought it was interesting that you could keep the same frame of reference and play seventh scale over the IV instead of transposing to the key center for that chord like you have to for other major chords in a tune. Either way works (transpose majors or use seventh scale), but only for that one chord.
Phew! Just play the darn thing! 
_________________
Disclaimer! I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' around here. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2007 9:32 am
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So, you're saying that you play a G7 scale over a C chord, in the key of G. Why? I play a G scale and it works fine for me. 
If you're at the third fret in the key of G, and you pedal down to get the C chord (IV), do you always lower your 2nd string too (for the G7 scale)? I don't. I do lower the 2nd string if I'm in the key of C at the third fret, though.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2007 1:28 pm
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b0b writes...So, you're saying that you play a G7 scale over a C chord, in the key of G. Why? I play a G scale and it works fine for me.
Only because of the F# note in the G major scale. Its the only note not common to both G and C major scales, but flatted, it makes both G7 and C major scales identical. They're equivalent scales.
In actual practice, it probably doesn't make much difference. Its just that I've got this overall view of the neck that I'm trying to put together that'll work for me, and this little discrepancy about playing root major scale against the IV chord popped up.
If you played a G major scale pattern against an A major chord, it wouldn't sound right unless you moved the whole thing two frets to the right. Then it would sound like A scale. Same thing with a B major chord 4 frets to the right. But with a C major, because G and C scales are so closely related, you wouldn't have to move over 5 frets to the right to play against a C chord. You could play that G scale pattern and it would sound right against a C chord and that F# note wouldn't sound like a clinker even though its not in the C major scale.
My sole point is that by just flatting that one note--the F# to F for a G7 scale--you're actually playing the notes of a C major scale. Without flatting it, you're playing "mostly" C major scale with the exception of one note (F# instead of F) which is pretty darn close and that's why it still sounds good.
Like I said, all this is probably irrelevant in actual practice, its just a matter of how it all fits together in the overall view of the neck that I'm developing for myself. You know, the relationships between keys, scales, chords etc, so I don't get "lost" on the neck.
_________________
Disclaimer! I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' around here. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2007 3:10 pm
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Typically, I don't change scales when I change chords unless one of the notes of the new chord isn't in the current scale. All of the notes of a C chord (C E G) are in the G scale, so there's no need to change scales. Ditto with the chords Am, Bm, D7 and Em. I just stay in the key of G.
The out-of-scale notes creep in when I go to a chord that contains out-of-scale notes. For example (still in G), when I go to the E7 chord (VI7), I often change the G note of the scale to G# because E7 has the notes E G# B D.
That's how I play, anyway. I'm not a jazz player. Maybe changing the entire scale on every chord change is a jazz thing. I just change the notes that are actually in the chord, and sometimes I don't even do that. 
_________________
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Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2007 3:26 pm
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I get it. That's good info B0b. Simpler too!
_________________
Disclaimer! I make no warranty on the manure I've been spreadin' around here. |
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