Playing the pocket?

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

I've been playing PSG since June this year, strictly E9, and I've come across what I believe is referred to as the "pocket". I'm trying to get a general understanding of

how to play PSG for any song or tune and I'd be glad to get any feedback or clarification on this whole business. I'll explain here what I've found in terms of this

"pocket" and my general understanding of playing a tune on PSG and maybe someone can either set me straight or confirm things for this newby. Its very exciting to

get a "big picture" sort of grasp when learning something new and I think I may be on to something here.

From my study of the harmonized major scale on the steel I see the network of scale positions lying between the open and pedals down chord positions for any given

key. For example, in the key of G this region of scale positions would ly between frets 3 (open) and 10 (A & B pedals). I'm only aware of one position that lies

outside these frets and that is at fret 1 (and its octave at 13) , but everything else is contained therein. Of course, it then repeats again at fret 15 thru 22.

I should say first that I'm only talking about the use of the A & B pedals and the E lower lever in all this. The "network" of scale positions I refer to is the sum of the

horizontal and vertical major scales and the crossover points from one string grouping to another within those bracketing frets that define this pocket.

Within these frets there are the horizontal major scales on what I think of as the triad groups of strings --3 & 5, 5 & 6 and 6 & 10. Then there are the scales on

strings 4 & 5 and its mirror image on 5 & 8 (with the help of the E lower lever). Then there are the vertical major scales centered on frets 3 & 10 along with some

alternate positions on groups 4 & 6, 3 & 4 and 1 & 2. Phew! That's everything I know about concerning the major scale thus far.

Interestingly, also within this pocket, and including the one position outside it at frets 1 & 13 that I mentioned is the scale(s) for the V7 chord of the major chord in

question (D7 for G etc). This makes sense to me because The V7 scale is really just root scale played from the 5th tone to its octave, or the mixalydian mode, as I

understand it. Did I really say "mixalydian"? I've always wanted to use that word in a sentence.

I've been using Jeff Newman's "Up from the top-AB pedals" videos, and it seems that every lick, phrase, fill or run you could ever want to make is contained in this

pocket and crossovers to its octave up or down the neck. So, in this neck region bounded by the open and pedals down frets, you have all the major and seventh

scale positions for the given key, which would be all you'd need for a two chord (I, V) tune. For other major chords in the tune, like the IV, you'd mentally "slide" this

whole scale region to its appropriate location (like frets 8 & 15 for a C chord) and play out of that new pocket? Its almost like laying a template over the neck at

specific places and this template gives you all the positions you can use for that chord without going out of scale. And, if its in the scale, its going to sound OK.

I don't know about minors yet, but I have a feeling it might be a matter of playing the modes of the root major scale. But, I think I heard Jeff Newman say something

in passing on his videos about the seventh scale working for the II, V, and VI chords,(that's two of the minors right there II & VI) but I'm not sure on that.

So, is this the work? Learning this pocket inside and out and being able to mentally shift it around the neck for different chord changes? Is it the common practice to

shift this pocket around the neck to the appropriate positions for playing major chords other than the root? How are the minor chords handled? Whoops! Never

mind that last question about minors--my brain can't handle it right now.

P.S. please excuse the weird formatting. I wrote this out in notepad and copied and pasted it to this message. Seems the carriage return and line feed characters were copied along with the text.
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Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I've never used "Pockets" to understand the fretboard.
What makes sense to me is relating the Nashville Number System to the fretboard, but that's a whole 'nother story.

When you're ready for Minors have a read thru http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=112174&highlight=thought+process+minorsand it's links.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I thoroughly agree Joey. Number intervals and harmony theory is where its at for learning pedal steel.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Compared to a lot of you guys, I'm rather "musically challenged"...but I consider playing in the "pocket" as merely playing within a rather narrow area, fretwise. Any movement of the bar that goes more than 1 or 2 frets in either direction is veering "out of the pocket". Though most players tend to mention and practice full scales when playing this manner, I see far more fragmented scales and licks being used. When I played straight guitar decades ago, it was called "position playing", where you would employ similar fingerings to play the same licks or scales in different keys. Once you learned it, you just moved to the appropriate fret to play the same thing in a different key.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

I've always used "Pocket" as a rhythm section term.
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David Doggett · Posted 9 Oct 2007 6:37 pm

I'm like Donny. In the key of G I consider the third fret a single position or pocket, and the 10th fret with the pedals down as another pocket. The E-lower lever and the A pedal/F lever combination are used between these pockets to move from one to the other. You didn't mention the A/F combination. It is more useful than the E-lower lever between the pockets. You can move from the open pedal position at fret 3 up to the pedals-down position at fret 10. And then keep going from there up to the octave open position at fret 15, then on up into Hughey land at fret 22.

I see two contrasting ways to play scales and melodies. One way is to stay at one position and use the pedals and "chromatic strings," which are really just "scale" strings. If you run out of strings, you might skip up to the next position and use the pedals and scale strings there. This a modern sounding way to play, with a harp-like sound. The contrasting way to play is more traditional, and goes back to the time of 8-string pedal steels, before the "chromatic strings" were added. With this method you slide up and down the neck using the A and B pedals, E-lower lever, and F lever. This is a twangier style with more "pedal mashing." I love both styles, and really appreciate the way older pros, who learned both styles, can mix the two styles together for great phrasing.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Jeff Newman taught c6th neck by refering to "pockets", or "playing the pockets", which more or less is playing sections of scales, that tend to always "work" over certain positions on the neck.

Michael Hardee · Posted 9 Oct 2007 8:25 pm

Phil, I'm an ear player who knows a bit of theory but not so it messes up my playing. When I started playing Jeff Newman had not started up yet, it was copy licks off records and absorb everything I could when I found a picker who was willing to teach a bit.

I recommend you not over analyze but learn as many licks, fills, intros and turnarounds as you can and train your ear to hear the chord changes. And play with others as soon as possible. As you gain experience you'll start to hear what you want to play in your head and as you become intimately familiar with your steel you should be able to translate what you hear in your head into music.

All of Jeff Newman's courses are valuable, but I really recommend his "Up from the Top" video courses.
What a gift it would have been to have those courses forty years ago.

Robert Harper · From: Alabama, USA

I agree, learn to hear the canges play with sonmeone, best bet, wishI had

Rob Segal · From: New York NY

Phil,

I would like to chime in here on your original post. Your description of the mental picture you are building inside your head of the E9th neck is excellent in its clarity and scope. From my point of view you are absolutely on the right track.

First, yes, once you've learned the 'road map', all that is needed to play in any key is to slide it up and down the neck as you described.

Second, the term 'pocket' is useful, comfortable, cosy even; but ultimately one's goal is to see the neck as one big pocket. Again, as you said, once you know 12 bars of the neck you've got it.

However, one of the several amazing/confusing/difficult things about this instrument is the seemingly endless supply of new 'roads' that crop up in the 'map' of scales, progressions, changes, glisses, etc. that are contained within that master 12 bar pocket. Each time one activates a lever or pedal, the map flashes up a new network of roads one must negotiate. Ultimately, the number of options becomes huge, with at least 60 playable and useable combinations of pedals/levers (I've not made a complete count of them, stopped trying at about 50 or so).

This is a lot of burning for the chip! One can play a G chord of some kind on every single fret between the 3rd fret and 15th, given the standard copedant of 3 pedals and 5 levers.

Obviously you're an accomplished musician already; you are on the right track. Don't limit your pocket, keep exploring, keep burning the chip, and at some point, which you've probably reached already, the chip is burned enough that you don't have to think 'well now I'm going here, then I'll go there'; but rather you can flow some impulsive, expressive music through the pocket/map.

Rob

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Phil,
Sounds like you are doing great and absolutely on the right track. One thing that helps me progress in my understanding of the neck is to take a short phrase and learn how to play it so that it sounds the same in 3 different positions on the neck. Lloyd Green showed me that idea when I was just getting started and it helped my playing quite a bit.

Another thing is don't forget to let your playing sing and sound beautiful.

Keep up the good work !
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Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Buddy Emmons wrote some articles on this awhile back. If you go to his web site you may find the article and some illustrations explaining the concept. If you have access to any the old "Steel Guitarist" magizines, Buddy has an article call "At E's" that also gives details about playing in the pocket.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Phil, I think you're on the right track because you're talking a lot about inversions of the chords.
The scales lie in those positions, as well as between them. In other words you have "vertical and horizontal" scales. Vertical referring to the scales that go through the 8, 10, or 12 strings in a fixed bar position. Horizontal referring to sliding up the neck from one position, or inversion to the next. I've been playing for about 3 years, and I am still working on this too. Hang in there, sounds like you're developing a good strategy.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I LOVE when this topic comes up. Always great insight into this topic from such knowledgeable players and coming from regular guitar, where boxes and pockets are very handy, I despearately want to apply this concept to the pedal steel.

These conversations often involve a bit of bemoaning the lack of instructional materials relating to this concept of pockets and the guitar players, myself included, crying for their blues boxes to be revealed. I gave up hoping the blues boxes would be handed down to me and went out and found my own and it made a world of difference for me. Suddenly I could solo. Suddenly there was a path up (and back down of course) the neck to the next "pocket".

I think of pockets and my precious "blues boxes" as different things. The pocket being more of a horizontal major scale sounding thing often harmonized(root, AF three up, AB up from that) and the blues boxes being more of a vertical minorish single note sounding thing. You can tell by my descriptions I am a very sophisticated musical theorist Wink

anyway, cant wait for more responses and insight. if anyone wanted to lay out their "pockets" on paper...whoo boy that'd be swell to see. I did not understand the OP's pocket description...we each have our own way of seeing things and coming to an understanding, hopefully, of the fretboard. Its a difficult task on the psg because the knees and pedals allow for a fully three dimensional fretboard...it gets very abstract and is hard to represent on paper..we need CAD Smile

a forum member sent me his gorilla guide when I first started and it laid out the pockets in a way i could understand. That was probably the single most helpful peice of instruction Ive received (Thanks Tucker!)

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Blues Box type pocket:
www.dougbsteel.com/PentPage.htm

Joe Wright has a fantastic tool for visualizing the notes on th neck with his spreadsheet program:

http://pedalsteel.com/joe/
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Jim Kennedy · From: Brentwood California, USA

Phil' seems to me you are on the right track. I too am new to pedal steel and am using the Jeff Newmans A&B pedals video. I have played gutar since I was a kid, and like many others, I started out with the "box system" and expanded from there. I think the A&B pedals video is similar to learning the CAGED system for guitar. The anacronym stands for the maajor chord shapes. Larry Carlton has a fantastic video course that lays it all out for guitar, chords, scales, arpegios and their relative minors. It's all positional. Play any major or minor chord shape, it's scales, arpegios developed from that scale, at any fret, in any key. This is realy the beauty of Fretted instruments. Learn a few basic chords, scales, and arpegios, how they relate up and down the neck, and you can play volumes of music in any key simply by changing position on the neck. Throw in a few pedals and knee levers, and the possibilities are almost endless.
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Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Thanks Bob! Joes stuff looks like just what I am after, dont know why i never registered before...registering always kinda makes me shy away i guess, but that was painless. That excel spreadsheet thing looks a bit confusing to me plus you gotta pay for that but I will be going over those free lessons for sure.

Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Phew! Looks like I tickled a nerve with this post--it is a very good topic for discussion I think. Thanks for all the suggestions and encouraging words.

I guess my choice of the word "pocket" was perhaps not the best--I was just grabbing at straws. I guess what I'm talking about is really just a methodical "organizing Principle" which works well for me but can differ from person to person. I am working slowly and methodically through the scale positions looking for that one "unifying principle" that will open up the most territory in the simplest, most understandable way.

I do know about and use the AF positions, and they are implicit in the bounded region I described. But, for the sake of simplicity, I'm only dealing with the AB pedals and the E lower lever for now. When I hit those AF positions, I just stay off the 4th & 8th string for now.

I'm getting my new Carter S10 in a few days, but I think most of the levers will stay folded up for a while. I want to learn first just what can be done with only two pedals (A&B), and maybe one knee--which, incidentally, appears to be quite alot. Then, the other levers can come down and I think they'll just allow me to get the same notes in different ways and help expand my little roadmap. Its important for me to first see how those added levers (and pedals) fit into the big picture that I'm trying to develop in my mind, without letting them turn the whole picture upside down.

Without an underlying principle that works in most, if not all cases, it would be quite easy to get overwhelmed and confused by all the permutations of pedal/lever/fret combinations. I want that underlying principle first, then I think all the bells and whistles will serve to broaden my perspective and expand on the origional understanding instead of throwing me into confusion.

Its very interesting to note how confidence affects one's playing, and for me, confidence comes naturally from knowing exactly what you're doing and why. From my many tortured years of playing b&n|0, I've found one great fact--that "simple" played confidently sounds better than "complex" played hesitantly.
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Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

You'll do fine with the amount of thought you're putting into this.

I wouldn't delay working with the AF combination.

It's the logical connector between the NP and AB positions, as you work up and down the neck.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I agree with Joey.

I have a bare-bones pedal steel that I keep at my sister's house for when I visit her. It has 2 pedals (A and B) and one knee lever (F). To me, these are the most essential changes.

There are three pocket positions, not two: no pedals, A+B, and A+F. Learning to play just two of them "first" destroys the continuity of the E9th system, in my opinion. You miss the piece that ties it all together. You get used to playing with these big gaps between positions, and you end up playing in one or the other without the logical transitions to move up and down the neck.
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Phil Halton · From: Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA

Hi B0b,

I didn't mean to imply that I ignore the area between the NP and AB positions. Rather, I was referring to the NP and AB positions as boundaries of a region. Bookends if you like, within which are contained a whole raft of scale positions, including the AF position. For example, the D7 scale as: strings 5&6 fret 5 AB, 4&5 @ 3 A, 4&5 @5 A, 4&5 @ 7, 4&5 @8 A, 1&2 @ 8, 3&4 @8, 3&4 @ 10

Of course, the fret 7NP position on 4&5 above is a kind of "fudge" position for 6 AF on 4&5, but that's how I learned it from a run on a Newman video. I also realize that the first 4 positions could have been played on fret 10 starting on 6&8, and that's kind of what I'm trying to learn--all these scale positions and their alternates within the NP and AB positions.

Obviously, there's alot of stuff going on between the NP & AB positions which is what I'm referring to. I'm trying to get a handle on all the scales (major & 7th) on all the string groups and all their crossover positions from one string group to another within those two bookend positions and the overall pattern they make.

I'm always looking for patterns, or "templates", in things especially when there's alot of information to organize and absorb. If I can know every (scratch every, make that many or most) major scale position and its alternates and know how they all relate to each other in a 7 or even a 12 fret region of the neck... well, sounds like alot, but I think its doable. Now, having said all that, I've forgotten what it was you said to begin with--I'll have to re-read your post after I send this.
Smile

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Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I think what bOb and Joey are sayin is that AF is as important as AB and NP, not just one of the many stops in between..its a major hub. Mainly I think your saying you werent even gonna flip that F lever down for a while is alarming because it is a crucial spot even for the beginner.

NP(root)...up 3 frets from root with AF....up seven with AB.

The three major scale pockets and where alot of your time is gonna be spent.
There are also minor pockets if i am not mistaken.

I am with you Phil in that i want to find patterns to make some sense out of this overwhelming array of choices. These three pockets help alot towards that end.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

The concept of "Pockets" has been mentioned in the past mostly in reference to single note playing and improvising (or if you so will, jamming). This again mostly, in a non pedal mode. Bar movement can of course be replaced by pedal pulls, typically in E9th, the tendency has been to flatten the multi-fret "pocket" to a straight line across the stings in certain positions, which I think, creates a different approach.

So, let me come back to the concept of pockets without using the pedals:
An octave consists of 12 different semitones... then they just repeat. I know, you know that... but bear with me:
If you are playing tunings of which most mainly consist of a mix of 2nd, m3rd and M3rd intervals (between adjacent strings), you will have all these 12 different notes in any block of a couple of stings by two to three frets. Such a "block" thus has everything to play from Country to Jazz and Classical. One can start exploring a "block" at any string.
However, for some idioms some blocks create a more or less comfortable alignment of notes and intervals for particular musical idioms and our playing techniques, so, some prefer some particular blocks or combinations thereof and call them "pockets". They are movable and so identified by key.
"Blocks" are a mathematical occurrence, "pockets" however are the result of the player's musical creativeness and personal musical inclinations and taste, mixed with technique.
One should not be mistaken to believe that "knowing" so-and-so's pockets will lead to playing so-and-so's music or learning a particular musical style like blues, jazz, bebop, just to mention a few examples.

... J-D.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

and we have not yet even discussed strings 8+5 relative to the AB/NP position (-2 frets back, start there) using the Eb lever, E Raise lever , the A Pedal and the Bb Lever....

8+5 with associated levers/peds used in multiple positions opens up the fretboard as much as the first day we learned what the AB pedals did.

It's like when all of a sudden BONANZA came on TV in COLOR !

heres a YouTube of what I am talking about if you don't already know..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvtGqa6l3f4

Happy Thursday..
tp

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